My game: Shattered Norns Second Thread, short, questions.

[Steve Marsh (Ethesis)]

Questions:

1)  How is my artwork?

          Samples at:

          http://adrr.com/story/wolf006.htm

          http://adrr.com/story/wolf004.htm

          http://adrr.com/story/wolf002.htm

          http://adrr.com/story/p002.htm

          Those also show different styles.

2)        How are my settings, which is worth working on first?

          http://adrr.com/hero/norns/index.htm for the overall setting
          Shattered Norns (at that url)
          Shadow Wars (at that url)
          Mistworld (pdf, send me an e-mail at ethesis@aol.com and I will e-mail you a copy, it is about 1.6 meg, from the 1982 draft).

3)       How do you like the 3d6/2d10/d20 approach to tasks?

Thanks.

[Calithena]

(2) The setting that's worth working on first is the one you feel in your gut, period. Who thought a game about Mormon Cowboys was going to be one of the best ever designed? I was like 'fuck, Vincent's so smart, why is he working on this lame niche product'? Truth is, Vincent was smarter than that - he worked on the idea that moved him, and now the game moves lots of people as a result, even people who didn't have any interest or love for Mormonism.

That said, if you want to please me, work on Mistworld.

(3) 2d10 is better overall than the other choices. No fumble, 1 in 100 crit, and a higher average (3d6 and d20 are 10.5 average, 2d10 is 11). There are cases where you'd still eschew it (you can do a table with target numbers and tell which dice combo is best depending on what you need).

For these reasons I might slightly prefer leaving out the 2d10 and just have 3d6 and d20, with the 3d6 being a slightly more dramatic version of the 'take 10' rule in 3e D&D in effect. But all of this is kind of meaningless without knowing how you want the resolution to feel in your setting etc.

[Steve Marsh (Ethesis)]

(2) The setting that's worth working on first is the one you feel in your gut, period. Who thought a game about Mormon Cowboys was going to be one of the best ever designed? I was like duck, Vincent's so smart, why is he working on this lame niche product? Truth is, Vincent was smarter than that - he worked on the idea that moved him, and now the game moves lots of people as a result, even people who didn't have any interest or love for Mormonism.

That said, if you want to please me, work on Mistworld.

Everything I've done moved me at one time, and still does.  ;)  I'm still playing with either just dropping it or moving forward.  1993 was a long time ago.

BTW, I still like what I've read about Dogs in the Vineyard.  I'm glad to hear that it moves lots of people as a result.  I may buy it and read it before I do much more, just for my own pleasure.

Do you know a place I could use to host the rough draft pdf I'm giving away so people could just download ti without my having to e-mail it to them?  (And yes, anyone who gets the pdf is free to forward copies around, etc.).

(3) 2d10 is better overall than the other choices. No fumble, 1 in 100 crit, and a higher average (3d6 and d20 are 10.5 average, 2d10 is 11). There are cases where you'd still eschew it (you can do a table with target numbers and tell which dice combo is best depending on what you need).

For these reasons I might slightly prefer leaving out the 2d10 and just have 3d6 and d20, with the 3d6 being a slightly more dramatic version of the 'take 10' rule in 3e D&D in effect. But all of this is kind of meaningless without knowing how you want the resolution to feel in your setting etc.

2d10 is supposed to be better, I've got a mild disparaging tone when I write about berserks (Hrolk Kraki's downfall was hiring berserks) and turgid men-at-arms.  However, sometimes a cautious approach gets you through to the end of the day, and sometimes there is only hope in gambling against the odds.

Your point illustrates that I've failed to communicate how I want the resolution to feel like.  I want rolling 3d6 to feel plodding, cautious, safe.  I want d20 rolls to feel like a gamble, careless, reckless.  I want 2d10 to be superior, the professional's choice in most circumstances.  The first time I did the system was right after I had abandoned setting dice rolls by skill (i.e. you might roll a d4 to roll under some skills, a d6 or d8 for others, d12 or d20 for others) and I flipped the whole thing,and I had "character classes" by the type of dice you rolled -- alignment, attitude and dice all in one definition.  If you took the gambling or berserk approach, it was always a d20, if you took the plodding approach it was always 3d6, if you were classic, professional you always rolled 2d10.

I moved to make the randomization dependent on the amount of opposition (against no opposition you always do your max, in some circumstances you would be rolling 12+d6 instead of 3d6, or 6+2d6 instead) and let it slip out, not to mention letting it go when I decided to try converting everything to Runequest, though I came back (as you can see in the skills write-ups), and have come back to it with the 3d6/2d10/d20 approach.

That may be more than you were interested in reading, but I hope it conveys what I was thinking.

[Calithena]

Yes, it does. In that case the dice mechanics are doing just what you want them to do in terms of feel. Although I still see a possible problem. If the target numbers are transparent to the players there's still going to be a best answer. If you need a 3 you should always go for 3d6; if you need an 11 you should go for 2d10; if you need a 20 you should go for 1d20. So it may be possible to 'game the system' in a way that makes it less fun overall, depending on how modifiers interact with it. Do you see what I mean? If you can write a table with 20 values based on what gives you the best chance of rolling what you need, and you get to choose for every action, then it's really not that hard with a little time to study for the decision to cease being interesting player tactics and start being simple logic instead (I need x so I roll ydz).

As to Dogs, I can't recommend it highly enough.

Would you be open to someone (me) using a short description of Mistworld as an example in a game-text, giving you full credit? We should probably take that discussion off-line, but I like the setting a lot. It would be one of the settings in the remaining material for chapter two on my website, if you want to see what I have in mind.

[Steve Marsh (Ethesis)]

Yes, it does. In that case the dice mechanics are doing just what you want them to do in terms of feel. Although I still see a possible problem. If the target numbers are transparent to the players there's still going to be a best answer. If you need a 3 you should always go for 3d6; if you need an 11 you should go for 2d10; if you need a 20 you should go for 1d20. So it may be possible to 'game the system' in a way that makes it less fun overall, depending on how modifiers interact with it. Do you see what I mean? If you can write a table with 20 values based on what gives you the best chance of rolling what you need, and you get to choose for every action, then it's really not that hard with a little time to study for the decision to cease being interesting player tactics and start being simple logic instead (I need x so I roll ydz).

As to Dogs, I can't recommend it highly enough.

Would you be open to someone (me) using a short description of Mistworld as an example in a game-text, giving you full credit? We should probably take that discussion off-line, but I like the setting a lot. It would be one of the settings in the remaining material for chapter two on my website, if you want to see what I have in mind.

I'll be buying Dogs, probably as a gift to myself for my upcoming birthday.

Yes, you are more that welcome to use a short description of Mistworld.  You are welcome to post the pdf at your site for anyone who wants the long description ;)

The ability to switch between dice used was something I wanted.  3d6, you are being careful, d20 you are going with reckless abandon (remember, with the d20 you are fumbling 5% of the time, with the 3d6, never).  I admit that I waivered between imposing one dice choice on a character (the "class" in an otherwise classless system) and letting them switch.  Most players tend to pick a type of dice and stick with it most of the time, btw, even when they should know better.

Any preferences between the art styles?  The void of feedback, especially as to the art, is a little frustrating. 

[Calithena]

Well, I hope someone besides me chimes in on the thread! I'm not much of a judge of that style of art, I'm afraid - it all looks competently executed though. If I were to compare them I think I like them in roughly the order you posted them - first my favorite, going down from there.

It's interesting what you say about players holding on to the same dice. If it were me, I'd just figure out what the optimal choices by TN were (1 - 2d10, 2 - 2d10, 3 - 3d6, etc.) and roll that every time, unless I felt there was some really spectacular incremental benefit served by the chance of critting that was worth the chance of fumbling, in which case the d20 edges up.

One thing I will say about your system is that (although you don't suggest this) it makes nasty old-school critical hit and fumble charts much fairer to include in play, since the player can control whether he or she ever rolls on them or not. In fact, I think that having critical hits and fumbles be very extreme results makes the system better, because then it's not just the simple mathematical 'which dice give me the best chances for what I need here', there's also the enhanced risk/reward angle to consider.

In conjunction with this though I think I'd require all 'grunt-level' GM adversaries to roll 3d6 no matter what - the 2d10 and d20 would only be open to 'name' foes and special challenges, however the system adjudicates that.

[Steve Marsh (Ethesis)]

I should note that I've always been comfortable with people using things I've done with only credit being given.

When I did Mistworld, I was going to do the setting and Anders was going to do some scenarios and some follow-up editing.  Unfortunately, the BRP series of add-ons faded out about then, so there was no reasonf or Anders to do anything.  I'd love to see Mistworld come back to life, if only for a little bit, or only as parts of other people's systems and settings.

One place I did split with the standard RQ crowd was that I allowed people to buy hit points.  If you just look at the rune spells and the 3 point extension spell -- which is basically permanent -- you can get a good idea of what 6 points of POW would buy you, assuming you had to work around the game limits otherwise.  I made that a function of the man rune sealing that most children receive which make them healthier, provides for homeopathic hit points, cures some deformaties, increases natural healing and makes the purchase of hit points possible.

Obvious a slow progression, much like a D&D varient I did which added a hit point a level rather than a hit dice per level, but a progression noe-the-less.

But, I'm glad to be e-mailing people copies of the Mistworld pdf, wondering about a place I can get the pdf hosted so people can download it without e-mailing me, and very pleased that someone is considering using part of it.

I'd be willing to let someone use 99% of it as a sourcebook (I don't think they want the typos or the footers) if they wanted.  Obviously if someone decides that they are going to do that, it seems only fair that if someone else wants to do it they need the first guy's permission.

But I'm easy, especially when there isn't any real money involved.  If this were a d20 project being done by WoC, I'd want to be paid.  But most indie games don't break $20k or $30k in profits, and that isn't enough to justify the time the author puts in, nonetheless bleed the author white with payments to third parties.

[Steve Marsh (Ethesis)]

Well, I hope someone besides me chimes in on the thread!

Looks like you are it.

A lot less interest in my stuff than Myrkwell, for example.

I think my excursion into The Forge is pretty much a bust.

On the good side that frees up time to spend on my ADR newsletter.  I've got almost two thousand subscribers there and two book reviews due (written, just not typed up into final).