[Down Spiral] Fast-paced, aggressive gangster play

[joepub]

I love the idea of GM as the "protagonist".

Now, Calvin, I think that part of the reason for our differentiation in opinion is definitions of protagonist.

My definition is as follows:

protagonist - The character who the story is based around. The "main character" of a book or movie.
antagonist - A force existing in the world which opposes the protagonist.



The core mechanic of the game is the Control Pool. Having every character have one wouldn't make sense to me, because most people don't suffer the Tragic Hero Downfall, which is part of the game I really want to emphasize.

Maybe protagonist/antagonist is the wrong word choice for an RPG in this case, becuase indie gamers carry slightly different connotations maybe?

I am not saying I want a game that's cut/dried, etc.


But I want the main characters (let's call them protagonists for the time being) to have a Control on the situation. And I want all the other forces in the world to strip them of this control.




And I'm trying to stress also that the antagonists aren't what the story revolves aruond. The antagonists come and go more - That's why there are even rules for taking up NPCs if your character is out of the game...





Or do you still think taht the differentiation doesn't have to be made? And by that, what are you suggesting happen to the Control Pool?
That the part of yuor argument I don't grasp - what happens to the control pool?

[madelf]

I don't think we're off much on the definitions. I agree with your's as being the more accurate, with the observation that most (though not all, certainly) stories are about the "good guy(s)."

As to what happens to the Control Pool, you could just have it available for whoever is the protagonist of the moment. When they're in the spotlight, they have access to the pool. When they're acting as antagonist, they don't. Possibly.

Though I'll admit that I'm still uncertain why you want only one player to have a Control Pool. If each player is drawing from their own finite pool, then they're all going to be in the Down Spiral. It'll just be a battle to see who lasts the longest. It would be perfect for the noir style tale where the hero only manages to win the day (and sometimes as a hollow victory) after loosing almost everything, and would work equally well for "Snatch" or "Pulp Fiction" type scenarios where everyone's actions rebound off each other in a growing trainwreck of  disaster for everyone involved. Perhaps people can steal points from someone's Control Pool to add to their own, beating down the other guy while they build their power up, so the more the character is beaten down, the harder it is to get back up (though that might make for a depressing game after awhile).

The way I see it, you only need a single Control Pool if you only want scenarios where all the other players are ganged up on one person. If you're not sticking to that, then it doesn't make much sense to me.

But it's your game. It doesn't have to make sense to me, as long as it does to you.
:)

[joepub]

Okay. Now I think I like where you are going with this.
And at the same I want the story to have distinct "central" characters sometimes. While Reservoir Dog takes equal focus of everyone, L4YER CAKE doesn't.

So, I want a process that outlines who the players are (protagonists, antagonists).

Storyline wise, they differ as such: protagonists are there trying to deal with their own problems, antagonists are there to "deal" in someone else's problems.
Mechanically, Protagonists use their dice to stay in control, and to fend off enemies. Mechanically, Antagonists use their dice to gain the upper hand, and press against enemies.



So, here's my suggestion that I think meets both your and my agenda, Calvin:
The Arbitrator (GM) starts by outlining the story.
Arbitrator: We're going to be playing a jewel thief story. We're going for a gritty, pulp feel right now. Think Reservoir Dogs done in film noire.

Then players can take their current character sheet, or create a new, more fitting, one. If they use their old character sheet, they keep the fortes (both checked and unchecked) and the dice they had at the end of last story.
If they create a new character sheet, they get 10 "points", to spend on fortes and dice.
Todd: I'm going to use Jimmy again.
Arbitrator: Okay, he fits in with this story. I'll definately allow that.
Mike: And I'm going to use Tyrone again.
Arbitrator: Hold on, how does Tyrone make sense in this story?
Mike: ahh... um... well, he... Maybe I'll just create a new sheet.

Then, everyone who "submits" a character into the story is a protagonist. Each player who doesn't is considered "antagonist force". They get a set amount of dice, and don't start the game with a character.
They introduce new characters as frequently as they want, and in effect are storytellers (akin to the GM of most games). They might play a single antagonist throughout the game, or might switch characters/elements every 5 minutes.t
Arbitrator: That leaves you, Stacy, without a character. You're the only antagonist.
Stacy: Correct. I'm ready to take these assholes down.

I'm thinking antagonists get 10 dice, multiplied by the total amount of protagonists, divided by the total amount of antagonists. So in this case, she gets 10 x2 :1 = 20 dice.
This is probably way too much, but some kind of formula would probably be used.

Antagonists get no control pool, and get no fortes.


Then, the GM outlines a starting scene, and protagonists say whether they are in that Story Arc.
Arbitrator: A scene starts outside the jewellry store, 10 minutes before the robbery.
Todd: Alright, my character starts in that scene.
...

If all the protagonists are not "put in a scene" at that point, the GM outlines another scene.


And story arcs "intersperse". I actually want a mechanic for this to happen, because the longer you can keep it on your story arc, the more chances you have to hog the limelight. aka, the more chances there are for you to gain dice.

And at any point, a character can "opt out" of being a protagonist to play antagonistic forces. This would be used rarely, but when a player saw a real opening for sabotage, that was even more fun than playing their protag, they might just take the opportunity up.

Sabotage, Saving Graces, Low Blows, Twists all still apply.

[madelf]

I guess the biggest thing I don't quite grasp is the functional difference between the protagonist's Control Pool, and the pool of points that the antagonist has to use against him. Why does the protagonist have one pool and the antagonist has the other? What does this do that the simple intent of the character to "deal with their own problems" or "'deal' in someone else's problems" won't? And why is it necessary?

Really, I'm not trying to beat you up on this. I think maybe I'm just missing something. To me it seems like it would work fine to allow all characters to function the same and let their actions, or the emphasis of the current scene or story arc, determine their status as a protangonist or antagonist.

I do like the idea of having the antagonists function as sort of shared-GMs. That might have some potential. Similar to the idea of making the protagonist the GM, I think giving a level of dramatic editing ability to the antagonists would also make me see a much greater reason for a divide between antagonist and protagonist.

I guess I'm just thinking that the characters could be functionally the same. As in, each character can be a protagonist or an antagonist depending on the story arc that's currently in play. Perhaps the mode of play changes (perhaps certain options are available or unavailable in protagonist mode or antagonist mode), but the characters could function as either type as the story progressed and the different characters each get their moment in the limelight. So, in this scene, you might be an antagonist to the character in the spotlight (and trying to keep him from doing his thing) - but in another scene, where you're in the spotlight, you can become the protagonist (because then you are trying to do your own thing, and they're getting in your way).

Perhaps it could even be set up independent of scene, so that the abilities you have available to the character depend on what you intend to do with them, not whether you're in the spotlight. If you are trying to advance your own cause, you have protagonist "powers." But if you're trying to thwart someone else, then you're restricted to antagonist "powers."

And, just to be clear, I really don't have an agenda. I'm just throwing some thoughts around. Feel free to tell me to back off at any time. I just think you're onto something here with the potential to be pretty cool.

[joepub]

Okay, a note on dice "pools"


Protagonists have a Control Pool. The dice that are in this pool stay in this pool (with the exception of twists pulling them out).

ALL PLAYERS have a collection of dice used in play too.
Protagonists start out with 10 fortes/dice. Antagonists start out with a set amount of dice that is undetermined at this point.
But, protagonists get X dice, and antagonists Y dice.

X and Y dice are used in play during conflict resolution. The effects of conflict resolution alter the control pools.


The control pool is moderated in reaction to in-game dice/forte use. The control pool is "broken" when 2/3rds or more aren't sixes.

[joepub]

I'm not sure on the details,

but the protagonist Control Pool is a meter. A meter of how close to breaking they are.


and the in-game dice are used by protags/antags/everyone. They alter the meter.

[Danny_K]

The game style (but not the mechanics) remind me of a great free game I played called Scarlet Wake.  It's intended to simulate revenge flicks like Kill Bill, and the progress of play is that each player takes a turn with their protagonist, while the other players throw waves of mooks and bosses at them.  The winning strategy in that game was to take on a lot of mooks and win -- so that you had enough fighting power saved up to kill the boss at the end. 

In that game, the in-game resources aren't shared by the players -- if you kill your boss, it doesn't hurt my protagonist, but you're winning the game.  The main appeal for the antagonistic players was the thrill of pretend sadism, trying your best to stomp the protagonist into mush.  That's a powerful appeal, at least for me.  So I don't think the game is broken if there are separate die pools for each protagonist.  On the other hand, I don't know how I would have felt if I'd played the whole game as antagonist, without ever having a chance to show how cool my guy could be. 

[joepub]

Okay, so I've come up with a more realized idea of what I want:

GM outlines the story.
Every player starts with a character. That character has 10 "dice", of which some can be spent to gain a Forte box.
One or more protagonists are chosen. They each get a control pool.
The protagonists cannot have their story stakes succeed.
Once the protagonist(s) is(/are) broken, either the story ends or a new protagonist is chosen.

If a player switches characters, then they keep the same amount of "dice points" they had before, minus one. They give that one die to another player around the table.

When a conflict is won, the winning player gets 1 die for every point he won by.

Anyways, I want to outline an example of gameplay now. This takes place in the events of the Merchant of Venice (just to add some diversity to our discussion.) I summarize most of the movie in game terms. Skip to the next post if you don't want to read the full length

Shylock starts the game as the protagonist. He has a control pool of full 6's.
His story stakes are [Trump the Christians.]
He has 4 fortes (stickler for rules 3, hates christians 1) and 6 dice.

Antonio: I enter Shylock's office, telling him the story of how I need to borrow 3000 ducats on behalf of my friend Bassanio.
Bassanio: And I agree to this story, telling Shylock of my current debts.
Shylock: Well, I'm currently in total control. I have the enemies feeding from teh palm of my hand. "Sure, Antonio, I'll give you the 3000 ducats. And I won't charge a spec of interest."
(everyone at game table drops their jaw - waits for the catch...)
Shylock: "But if I don't get payment in 3 months exactly, you owe me one pound of your good Christian flesh."
-----This is a twist, and Shylock takes one of his 6 dice, and adds it to the control pool, facing a 6. He grins, having just widened his realm of control drastically.-----
GM: Shylock, take a die for Flavour there. Nice play!
Antonio: Shit, that's brutal!
Bassanio: Man, I need teh money - my story stakes depend on it.
Antonio: And my story stakes are [Help out my friends]. So I guess I'm kind of forced into this one. "Shylock, I accept your deal."
GM: Antonio, take a die for flavour too - friends through thick and thin. I like that.

Another Player: GM, I'm retiring my character to take on a new one - Shylock's trusted confidante. Here's the sheet (shows the GM the sheet).
GM: Sounds good. Everything looks to be fine, who gets teh throwaway die?
Confidante: Give it to Portia.
Confidante: Shylock, I come to you with grave news. Your daughter has been revelling with Christian men. (This is sabotage. He rolls a die, gets a 4)
Shylock: I'm still stable and in charge of my game - I'll get revenge on Antonio soon enough. I won't let this weigh me down. (Rolls, gets a 5.)
Confidante: Sir, she has eloped with one of the men. (He rolls again, gets a 2. Total: 6.)
Shylock: Then I will punish her. She will run out of money soon enough and come crawling back to me. Therefore, if I bide my time I'm still in control. (He rolls again, gets a 4. Total 9)
Confidante: Ah, but she has plenty of money. She sold her family heirloom ring, and can live off that income for a while. (Checks off a forte box of snoop, to reroll the 2. Gets a 6. Total: 10)
Shylock: Okay, I'll let you win this one. bastard.
Confidante: Does this count as a twist, GM?
GM: No, I don't think so. But it definately counts as a sabotage.
-----Because the confidante won the in-game bidding/rolling, he won the conflict. Since the sabotage was successful, he picks up one of the 6's in the control pool, and re-rolls it. The pool now looks like: {6,6,6,6,6,2}
---And the confidante takes his one die for winning the conflict by 1.

Bassanio: GM, this would be a good place to intersperse to Bassanio's story.
GM: Sounds good. We're going to cut to Portia's Palace now.
Portia: Oh, I hope that this new gentleman - Bassanio - will be the man I've been looking for.
GM: The herald anounces Bassanio's presence, and he enters.
Bassanio: "Hello, fair lady. I have come to win your hand in marriage!"
Portia: "So I have been told. however, it is not my decision alone. There is a grave test you must undertake in order to win my hand."
Bassanio: "So I have heard."
Confidante: GM, I want to submit a new character now.
GM: Can it wait till after the test?
Confidante: No, I want my character to BE the test.
(everybody raises eyebrows, then smirks.)
GM: Draw me a sheet.
(Confidante had 6 die points left. He gives the GM: The Test. Mislead 2, Dice: 4.)
(However, he is forced to give away 1 die for switching characters. He gives it to Shylock.)

Test: Okay, Bassanio. I am 3 boxes - one silver, one gold, one lead.
Bassanio: And I just have to pick the right one?
Test: Yes. There is a confusing riddle on each one. (Rolls a die, gets 3).
Bassanio: I read the gold box.
Test: All that glitters is not gold... (reads whole riddle)
Bassanio: That one won't catch me with its superfluois pomp and splendor. (Rolls a die, gets 5) I move on.
Test: The silver box reads: Who chooseth me shall get as much as he deserves... This box looks very promising (Uses a mislead forte to re-roll the 3, gets a 6).
Bassanio: Still, I move on to the lead box. (rolls a die, gets 4. Total 9)
Test: The tension is definately making it hard to think clearly, hey (Rolls a die, gets 4. Total 10)
Bassanio: Fuck off. What does teh lead box say?
Test: Who chooseth me must give and hazard all he hath...
Bassanio: What? That doesn't sound very pleasant.
Test: If you fuck this up, Portia won't marry you. (rolls a die, gets 3. Total 13)
Bassanio: I am intelligent enough to figure this out - and I have all the time in the world. (Rolls a die, gets a 5. Total 14.)
Test: Okay. I'm done.
Bassanio: (In this case, because he beat the test in conflict, he doesn't need to say which box he chose. Or, he can pick any box and it is assumed the right box. Or the test tells him the correct answer.) (This is because he beat the test, because a player chose to BE the test.)
GM: I'll award test a point of flavour for being a well thought out riddle.
(Bassanio wins his story stakes, and is awarded 1 die for winning the conflict by one.)

Shylock: It's been three months.
Antonio: Well, my ships have returned with their cargo I assume.
GM: This is crucial - I'm going to let people contest this.
Antonio: I check off a box of Sailor, to give me +1. Total: 1.
Shylock: Yeah, I read in the news that severe storms hit the waters. (Rolls die, gets 4).
Antonio: Well, my men received training from me, personally. (Rolls, gets a 3. Total: 4).
Shylock: And there are rumours of piracy spreading. (Rolls a die, gets 2. Total 6.)
Antonio: My ships are too fast to be pirated. (rolls a die, gets 3. Total 7.)
Shylock: Several people I know have been in tears because their husbands have not returned home. (Rolls a die, gets 6. Total, 12.)
Antonio: That is only because the ships are late. (Rolls a die, gets 2. Total 9.)
Shylock: Ha! Caught you there - you just confessed the ships aren't here yet. (Checks off Hates Christians forte, rerolls the 2. Gets 5. Total 15.)
Antonio: Fuck, 15? I am obviously going to lose, but I can't let you win 6 dice on this conflict.
GM: So...
Antonio: I said the ships were late for there arrival - I didn't say they haven't arrived yet. (Rolls a die, gets 4. Total 13.)
Shylock: Still, you have no money.
---Shylock just scored a Saving Grace. He gets to pick up a die on the control pool and re-roll it. Obviously he picks up the 2, and hopes for a 6. He unfortunately gets a 4, so nothing changes.---
Shylock: And, I get my 2 dice for winning that one. Back up to 3...    3 fortes, 3 dice.
Antonio: You'll still never get away with this Shylock!
Shylock: We'll see about that in court.

Bassanio: News reaches my ear that Antonio is due in court. I must go reach him.
Portia: Well, my story stakes are [Have a loving husband]. I don't want to get in the way of his friends, because that'll further me from my stakes. "Go, Bassanio. And take this chest of gold, should its use arise."
GM: This could symbolize you lending Bassanio a die, if you wanted to. Or the money could be just for storyline.
Bassanio: "Thank you, my love." (takes a die from Portia.)

Test: GM, I wanna switch characters again.
GM: What? You've only got 2 dice. That means after giving one away, you'll only have 1.
Test: Yeah. hee hee, I know.
GM: Sheet? (Test slides him a sheet: Judge. Dice: 1.) Fine, you can be the judge.
Judge: Antonio, Shylock, please step forward. Shylock, state your case.
Shylock: Antonio signed a deal saying that if he didn't pay me 3000 ducats in three months, he owed me 1 pound of flesh. And I have come to relinquish it. (Rolls a die, gets 5).
Judge: This is outrageous! Antonio....
Antonio: I beg of you mercy, good man! (Rolls a die, gets 1).
(Portia searches through a dictionary for the definition of flesh, then smiles.)
Portia: GM, I'm switching characters. Here's a sheet. (Portia in disguise as a doctor of law. Cunning 2. Dice: 7.)
GM: I'll allow that character. (Portia hands one of the 7 dice to Antonio.)
Bassanio: I burst forward, offering him 6000 ducats to forget about the flesh. (rolls a die against Shylock. Gets a 4. Total against: 5.)
Shylock: I care not for money at this point - this is about something bigger. (Rolls a die, gets a 2.)
Antonio: What you are doing is murder sir! (Rolls, gets a 4)
Shylock: You signed a contract, fool. (checks off a stickler forte box, rerolls the 2, gets a 6. Total: 11.)
Bassanio: Six Thousand Ducats! Just walk away. (Rolls a 4. Total: 9.)
Judge: We have an honourable lawyer coming forward. Let us hear his take now.
Portia: Actually, the lawyer could not make it. However, there is a young doctor of law waiting outside.
GM: Let him in now.
Doctor of Law: ...Thank you. Shylock, produce your bond.
Shylock: Here is is ma'am. (Stickler forte: +1. Total: 12)
Doctor of Law: Okay. After some deliberation, I've come to the conclusion that you are within your rights to take a pound of this man's flesh. However, I urge you to choose the money instead. (Rolls a die, gets a 5.)
---Shylock is legally allowed to cut this man. This is a saving grace. He picks up the 4 in his Control pool {6,6,6,6,6,4) and re-rolls it. He gets a 3.---
GM: I'll give you a flavour die just for sticking to your goal Shylock.

GM: We see that you are legally allowed to, now all you have to do is physically do it I guess.
Shylock: I bring a blade to the man's heart. (Rolls a die, gets a 4. Total: 4)
Doctor of Law: Hold it for one moment. I forgot to mention that the law allows you to render one pound of flesh. However, you are not allowed to spill any of this man's blood. You have no bond allowing you to take any of Antonio's blood. Thus, it would be a crime. (Rolls a die, gets a 4. Total: 5.)
GM: That's a twist.
Doctor of Law: haha, sucker! (Takes one of the 6's in the control pool out, and adds it to her own pile.)
Shylock: Well, in that case, I'll just take the money. (Rolls his final die, gets a 2. Total: 6.)
Doctor of Law: No, you officially made the choice to take his flesh. Therefore, you can't go back on that decision. (Rolls a die, gets 3. Total: 8.)
Shylock: I'm out of dice. Fuck!
GM: So, are you going to try to skin him still?
Shylock: I can't. I've been trumped.
GM: Doctor of Law, that's a sabotage success. And a die for being so cunning and sly.

Doctor of Law picks up one of the 6's {6,6,6,6,3} and rolls it. She gets a 1, which counts as a low-blow. Meaning she picks up another 6 {6,6,6,3,1}, and rerolls it. {6,6,4,3,1}.

Bassanio: The crowds I am standing in all cheer at his failure, and rejoice in that the greedy man met his end. (Rolls a die, gets a 4. Total: 4)
Shylock: I have nothing to contest that with. That means another sabotage in me trying to trump teh christians.
Bassanio picks up a die in the control pool {6,6,4,3,1} and rolls it.
{6,4,3,3,1}.

GM: Shylock, you have officially been broken.


For anyone who's seen The Merchant of Venice, the story doesn't end here. Let's say Bassanio has the most dice at this point (because he got 4 dice for his final action!) He know becomes the protagonist, and everybody switches story stakes. His stakes would be [make it up to his wife for being away]. He fails this by betraying her and handing her the ring, and thus the story continues that way.

[joepub]

Wow. What a long post. My apologies.


That's definately what I want to see with Down Spiral, though.


The question I have now is GMs: Is it necessary to have a GM at this point?
All the GM really does is arbitrate whether something is a twist, sabotage, saving grace, etc.

The reason it MAY be necessary is that players might be venemous and unfair about such arbitrations if they are sharing that arbitration duty.