[Tenjin] Pure Combat

[Latreya Sena]

So I thought of a game I'd like to play and lo and behold nothing exactly like it exists (to my limited knowledge). It's an idea I've had for a while but I thought it was already covered by such games as Warhammer, D&D Miniatures etc. And so when I came to actually looking at these games (to play them) I was a little disappointed and began a very long search for 'it'.

The type of game I am thinking of is an anime/manga style 'arena fighting miniatures game'. A pure combat RPG using miniatures. I'm thinking of a game exactly like PC games; players fight each other (perhaps in versus mode or team mode), individuals are exalted (rather than skirmish parties or armies), characters have a bucket load of kewl powerz, all totally combat related, a health bar and an energy bar etc. The game would take place in an open arena, probably using rulers for movement.

The best example to understand what I'm getting at is perhaps Little Fighter 2  http://lf2.net/ a sweet little PC game. I want a miniatures game just like that.

Now as far as I have searched there is nothing quite like this available on the market. In pen and paper RPG's as we know them it would be somewhere between a Martial Arts RPG and a Superhero RPG. I posted at RPGNET asking for such a game and got some excellent responses, after a long search however, unfortunately none of them quite fit the bill. Here's a run down of what I've found based on suggestions from the members there:

Warhammer, D&D Mini's etc
These games are skirmish/army based. They have a lot of superfluous rules; commanders, terrain, morale, adventuring etc. And while I like D&D adventuring in Eberron I find the miniatures/skirmish play suited to the setting and becomes very bland in a fast paced arena style action game.

Mutants and Masterminds and other superhero RPG's
Superhero RPG's probably come closest to my idea but once again they are full of superfluous rules and not exactly what I'm after. In this game martial weapons (which are downplayed in superhero RPG's) would be just as interesting as powerz.

CyborGladiators, Ludus Gladiatorus, Arena of Death etc.
Now we're getting somewhere. Yes, these are the closest to my idea but still no cigar. CyborGladiators by Firefly games looks very cool and I would probably enjoy playing it but admittedly in the back of my mind I would be milking it for ideas for an anime/manga-style fighting game, as cybernetics doesn't so appeal me.

So now, you see posting at The Forge is the next logical step if I need to design this game myself. So here's the a) and the b):

a)   If you know of a pen and paper RPG of this sort please direct me to it.

b)   I'm pessimistic about getting good help from others, especially on the net, so I won't get my hopes up - but – if a) fails then: Just about everyone here has thought of a combat system. Isn't that the beginning of every fantasy heartbreaker! If you like this idea and want to contribute then PM, email, post here your pure combat system. By combat system I mean a system that handles attack/defence/damage via weapons/powers/etc. It doesn't have to be too complex, just the core. I'm keen to do the building on it; the movement rules, kewl powerz, abilities, fighting styles etc. But it would be nice if someone (and I know all of the several hundred Forge users have) would just show me the basics, the foundation, of a very sweet combat system.

Finally, I intend this game to be a labour of love and therefore free, but as it is I am a good manga illustrator and graphic artist, and if I end up investing a good deal of time and energy into this project and see commercial potential I may end up selling it. Which, needless to say, anyone helping will get paid for.   

Yours sincerely,
Latreya.

latreyasena@yahoo.com

[dindenver]

Hi!
  Well, there is a D20 version of Big Eyes, Small Mouth (BESM). So it seems like if you used BESM D20 and the minis rules from D&D you should be set.
  I have only ever read the older Tri-Stat version of BESM and it does a great job of catching tue anime style.
  And R. Tal made a DBZ game. it is a little crunchy, but it sounds like that  might not turn you off.
  Finally, Exalted from WW is supposed to be inspired by anime. The setting is very epic, so if you don;t have your own setting in mind it might work for you. I am not sure how it would play with minis, but I can tell you it is a good game. I played it for about a year and liked it.
  I'd say before you start writing your own system, try out a couple games offered here, might open your mind to different ways of doing things. And also, come up with a sort of design goal/inner theme before starting any rules creation. That way you can have a litmus test to compare rules against to see if they belong in your game. For instance, Task Resolution (e.g., rolling for each punch thrown) vs. Conflict Resolution (rolling for the entire fight), you won't know which is right for you until you understand these concepts and then see how they promote/demote your primary goal/theme.
  Good luck man, if you get a good artist, you might be able to sell well...

[GreatWolf]

Hi, Latreya.  Welcome to the Forge!

Personally, I like me some serious arena combat butt-kicking from time to time.  In fact, the first game that I published (a mecha-ish game called Junk) really works best as an arena free-for-all.  So, I can totally groove on what you're looking for.  Here's what I'm hearing:  you want to be able to assemble a character, with a specific focus on assembling kewl powerz of various types, be it martial arts (a la Dragon Ball Z), massive power blasts, magic, huge swords, and whatnot.  Then, you want to enter the arena and beat the tar out of each other, employing tactics and creative combinations of your powers to take down your opponent.  There will be lots of dice rolling and cheering as the battle rages back and forth.  Then, finally, one side triumphs!  Everyone cheers!  Then it's back to the training area, where you spend your XP/money/whatever to improve your abilities to be able to do superior butt-kicking next time.

Am I right?

Because, if I am, I have a simple question.  What makes this a roleplaying game?  Why don't you design this as a boardgame of some kind?  Think about Car Wars, for instance, which is a boardgame with improvement rules (if you choose to use them).  You kit out a car and, over time, earn cash and prizes to let you build better cars to earn bigger cash and prizes....  But I don't see where the roleplaying aspect enters the picture.

Again, to be clear, this isn't intended to be a criticism.  I really like arena combat games, and I could probably point you in the direction of some other games that you could loot for ideas.  (Robo Rally is one example.)  However, the thought process for designing a boardgame is fairly distinct from designing a roleplaying game.  Which are you looking for?

I look forward to your response.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

As a good source of food for thought, as you work on your design, check out Meatbot Massacre. It fits your description very well, and you can decide which features you'd do similarly or differently.

Best,
Ron

[joepub]

Hey, have you heard of Inquisitor?

It's published by Games Workshop, and is a Wargame/RPG played with only a small handful of models each - often just one.


I haven't read the rules, but if you want:
-1 on 1 action
-solely combat oriented
-model/wargame structure...


then it'd DEFINATELY be worth checking out, to get a feel for it.

[Latreya Sena]

Thanks for the replies,

Well, there is a d20 version of Big Eyes, Small Mouth (BESM). So it seems like if you used BESM d20 and the minis rules from D&D you should be set. I have only ever read the older Tri-Stat version of BESM and it does a great job of catching tue anime style.

Yep, I started downloading the SRD for the d20 BESM but lost interest for some reason. I'll give it another good looking over.

D20 is an option but there are two issues: 1. Yes you can modify the rules as much as you want but once you get rid of the extraneous stuff (how far can justify intelligence or charisma in a game like this?) you may as well be writing something completely different. And 2. The restrictions on character creation and advancement make it near useless.

However, I do think (wether it be that company or someone else) that a simplified version of the d20 movement rules, character kits (consisting of character cards and their minis), another kit with an arena mat, dice and rulebook, and rules that support a lot more dynamic cool powerz and attacks anime/manga style, would probably outsell their current trading card and D&D mini's games together.

Actually, the more I think about, the more I think it would be commercially viable.

you want to be able to assemble a character, with a specific focus on assembling kewl powerz of various types, be it martial arts (a la Dragon Ball Z), massive power blasts, magic, huge swords, and whatnot.  Then, you want to enter the arena and beat the tar out of each other, employing tactics and creative combinations of your powers to take down your opponent.  There will be lots of dice rolling and cheering as the battle rages back and forth.  Then, finally, one side triumphs!  Everyone cheers!  Then it's back to the training area, where you spend your XP/money/whatever to improve your abilities to be able to do superior butt-kicking next time. Am I right?

Damn straight you are. That's the blurb on the back cover, right there!

Because, if I am, I have a simple question.  What makes this a roleplaying game?  Why don't you design this as a boardgame of some kind?  Think about Car Wars, for instance, which is a boardgame with improvement rules (if you choose to use them).  You kit out a car and, over time, earn cash and prizes to let you build better cars to earn bigger cash and prizes....  But I don't see where the roleplaying aspect enters the picture.

It's a pointless distinction as far as I am concerned. These sorts of games lie squarely in between. They are neither and they are both. It's a pointless distinction because what's a man to do, post a thread like this in a boardgame forum, where people are discussing monopoly? In actuality this sort of game has just as much inspiration from miniature wargames, pen and paper RPG's, computer hack and slash fighting games, and indeed boardgames. At the core of many 'mainstream' pen and paper role playing games lies a system for pure combat. It's exactly the same method I want to use: characters created with pen and paper, rolling dice to resolve their actions, moving miniatures etc. And so gamers like y'all here at the Forge are my only hope.

I really like arena combat games, and I could probably point you in the direction of some other games that you could loot for ideas.  (Robo Rally is one example.)

Please do!

As a good source of food for thought, as you work on your design, check out Meatbot Massacre. It fits your description very well, and you can decide which features you'd do similarly or differently.

Oh my god. I've had a brief look over it. I read the brief premise and almost cried with hysterical laughter. I'll read it properly tonight. God love the ransom model.

Hey, have you heard of Inquisitor?

Yes. I downloaded it but the introduction raved on about how it was all about role playing and not combat, so I ditched it. But I will now give it another read.

So, failing anything coming up that is specifically the game I'm after I believe I am all set to begin designing. You are all welcome to pitch in.

Latreya.

[Andy Kitkowski]

Hey dude, good luck!  Lemme see if I have anything to offer.

First off, are you married to the name "Tenjin"?  I'm thinking here it's Heaven (Ten) and People (Jin), right? It sounds pretty cool, but I'm thinking that maybe we can come up with an even cooler name.  Like the Tekken or Gekidoh or real harsh (or light, depending on your flava) sounding "FIGHT" sounding words.  If you want to, throw me some words, concepts or "feeling" that you want to associate with the game and I'll see if I can come up with something.  BTW, I'm fluent in Japanese (currently translating a Japanese RPG, see my sig for the link to Tenra Bansho). If you're sticking to Tenjin, though, that's totally cool.

The type of game I am thinking of is an anime/manga style 'arena fighting miniatures game'. A pure combat RPG using miniatures. I'm thinking of a game exactly like PC games; players fight each other (perhaps in versus mode or team mode), individuals are exalted (rather than skirmish parties or armies), characters have a bucket load of kewl powerz, all totally combat related, a health bar and an energy bar etc. The game would take place in an open arena, probably using rulers for movement.

Sounds cool, man!

Here's the thing, though: I saw that you gave a breakdown of possible "competitors" or guys who did similar things, to see if you have a niche.  It's my contention that you totally have a niche.  Thing is, how "crunchy" do you want your minis combat game to be?  Many of the games you mention (d20, etc) have a lot of time for character building, maxxing out stats and skills, and lots of trading blows in combat back and forth.  Unless HP is really low to start off with, it might be... i dunno... a little boring?  Reason I say this is because you mention LF2, which is pretty "rock-em, sock-em, fly by the seat of your pants" kinda quick action. 

When you gave me your concept, the first thing I thought about was a rule-tight RPG version of something like the card game "Lunch Money" by Atlas or "Fightball" by Cheapass games. Something where you're slapping down dice, cards, etc, and doing quick exchanges back-and-forth. Not like, say, Battletech or Gridmap D&D, where you sort of sit back, throw dice, apply midifiers, look up charts/tables, calculate aggregate damage, yadda yadda.  Tell me if I'm feeling you right. 

Yeah, I think you might want to sit down and think about the feel of your game.  One of my disappointments in the past few years was the announcement of Bedroom Games (IIRC) "Street Fighter" series of games (they're also doing "Justice High School", one of my favorite fighters).  They took what is essentially a quick, action packed game experience and turned it into a d20-based system which looks plodding... not so much "tactical/strategy" as "load up lots of stats and bludgeon the other guy down over time".  Then again, the game probably changed a lot since the demo a year or so back.  But you get what I'm saying. I'd hate to see you think in your head "Yeah, I want this to be tactical, fun, fast paced and exciting", and marry up with a system that doesn't meet those goals.

Something to think about.

b)   I'm pessimistic about getting good help from others, especially on the net, so I won't get my hopes up - but – if a) fails then: Just about everyone here has thought of a combat system... But it would be nice if someone (and I know all of the several hundred Forge users have) would just show me the basics, the foundation, of a very sweet combat system.

I don't think you'll get very far here with that.  Rather, I'd like you to think of your goals with the game: What do you want it to do, what do you want it to feel like, etc.  Think that out, post here, and we'll be able to help you craft the system you're looking for.  It's going to be much more fulfilling, I think, than going through mug-shots of ho-hum combat systems.

Finally, I intend this game to be a labour of love and therefore free, but as it is I am a good manga illustrator and graphic artist...

Where's your stuff, dude?  I'd love to see it, as I'm tied to a lot of manga projects too.

-Andy

[dindenver]

Hi!
  In GreatWolf's Defense, I think he is trying to help you get to the bottom of this issue. It seems like it WOULD be an RPG, but where is the actual roleplaying? Where is the interpersonal interaction, why not just make a board game? Why tack on RPG elements to a board game. Of course anyone here won't mind helping you make such a game, but don;t get all riled up when people point out it's not an RPG, lol
  Also, if you just want a tactical game, have you also considered Gurps?

[joepub]

Yes. I downloaded it but the introduction raved on about how it was all about role playing and not combat, so I ditched it. But I will now give it another read.

I think the reason for that wording is Warhammer is a wargame, and they're trying to distinguish strictly combat game from combat RPG.

, you want to enter the arena and beat the tar out of each other, employing tactics and creative combinations of your powers to take down your opponent.  There will be lots of dice rolling and cheering as the battle rages back and forth.  Then, finally, one side triumphs!  Everyone cheers!  Then it's back to the training area, where you spend your XP/money/whatever to improve your abilities to be able to do superior butt-kicking next time. Am I right?

---Damn straight you are. That's the blurb on the back cover, right there!

This is the first time that "tactics" has been mentioned, and I have a question on that:

-How heavy a role does Battlefield Tactics play in success?
-How heavy a role does Tactics that are off the battlefield (divy-ing up XP, purchasing skill points, etc) play in success?
-Does this game put a focus on strategy?


I want to stress that not having an importance on strategy is just as valid. I just wanted to mention that, because some people put negative connotations on things that involve less strategy and tactics.

It's a matter of flavour.

Also - Do the players battle each other, or "monsters"?
If they battle each other, I assume that half of them would need to make new characters after every "battle tournament".

[Latreya Sena]

Thanks for the replies. To answer all you questions:

First off, are you married to the name "Tenjin"?  I'm thinking here it's Heaven (Ten) and People (Jin), right?

Oh look, it was a rash choice; I just flicked through my encyclopaedia of eastern philosophy and came across it. It means "enlightenment of the mind". It's Japanese and a Zen expression. I thought hey, in these tournaments there is always a prize for the winner; a ridiculously enormous gold trophy, fame as the greatest fighter in the world, etc. so why not enlightenment? I thought it could be a theme for the game. But I didn't give it much more thought than that, I just like to have 'some sort of a title' while I work on stuff and I'm certainly not married to it.

I was acutely aware that my almost complete lack of knowledge of Japanese culture and language might have me come across as a total dork. But I don't mind so much, there's been a lot of goofy stuff from both sides when the crossing over of cultures occurs, it can be cute.

So if you have any suggestions I'm all ears. And regarding 'the feel' of the game, (I'm not familiar with Lunch Money and Fightball but I'll check them out when I have time) I'll tell your more about that at the end of this post as I have made some pretty big decisions.

Where's your stuff, dude?  I'd love to see it, as I'm tied to a lot of manga projects too.

Geez, I made myself sound like a pro, truth is it's just a hobby and I don't have anything on the net but you will see this game emerge this year and all the art, design, layout will be done by me.

In GreatWolf's Defense, I think he is trying to help you get to the bottom of this issue

I totally did not mean to be offensive, apologies to Seth - my worshipable deity of intriguing fiction and game design - if I came across that way. I really appreciate Seth and others posting here, taking the time to help me with my game, I guess I just don't do a lot of lol's and smilies, so please assume I'm just debating in a friendly tone.

Joe, I re-read Inquisitor last night, definitely good for ideas. I also downloaded the Star Wars mini rules from WotC website, another interesting game.

How heavy a role does Battlefield Tactics play in success?
-How heavy a role does Tactics that are off the battlefield (divy-ing up XP, purchasing skill points, etc) play in success?
-Does this game put a focus on strategy?
Also - Do the players battle each other, or "monsters"?
If they battle each other, I assume that half of them would need to make new characters after every "battle tournament".

These are all good questions.

Battlefield tactics? Next to naught. Oh, you mean as in moving/positioning the mini's or real life battlefield tactics? I mean sure, I may have rules for flanking etc. but really the focus is on in your face celestial weapons, martial arts combo manoeuvres and displays of cool mystic powers rather than traditional tactical warfare.
Off battlefield tactics? I haven't come to that yet, as you will see at the end of this post.
Strategy? I think that's an irrevocable facet to a game of moving pieces on a 'board'
Do the players battle each other, or "monsters"? Initially, each other but it did occur to me to include critters so that you can 'fight Rome'
half of them would need to make new characters after every "battle tournament"? Not initially, as you will see, the 'test run' game I'm going to write will be just like PC games – set characters who, once defeated, miraculously reappear for another bout.

So now where to from here... I've been giving it a lot of thought and realized that I'm going to have to reverse engineer my own game. Yes, I know this sounds weird but bear with me.

You see, I need to actually play the game before I commit to the very long and arduous process of developing the point buy system for character creation, designing every possible manoeuvre, filling out all the stats for the umpteen weapons and powers etc etc.

The easiest – and most beneficial – thing to do would be to just create the basic movement rules then make a few characters and start playing! I think if I saw a character sheet and played the rules I'll get a good idea of what's fun and what's not, what works and what doesn't.

I've already got entire sheets in my head, in fact I can't believe how fast it came to me, how combat would be handled, doing it this way.

Then I just reverse engineer, think of ways that a player could make a character like that. I can also add more rules and fill out all the details.

So now I'm off to knock up a free PDF that will have a few pages of the basic movement and combat rules, a selection of pre-made characters to play, and offer the simple options of a one on one fight or team play. Come to think of it, it could end up being a complete game in itself if people are happy with pre-made characters. But I will look at it as a test run before I delve into the crunch.

I'll post at the Forge when I'm done, for your perusal.

Latreya.

[GreatWolf]

I totally did not mean to be offensive, apologies to Seth - my worshipable deity of intriguing fiction and game design - if I came across that way. I really appreciate Seth and others posting here, taking the time to help me with my game, I guess I just don't do a lot of lol's and smilies, so please assume I'm just debating in a friendly tone.

Hey, just a quick note.  I wasn't in the least way offended.  I haven't posted back to this thread simply due to lack of time, but I intend to do so.  In particular, I'd like to address the "RPG/non-RPG" thing, but I don't have the time right now.

So, instead, a couple of quick thoughts.  First, you really ought to check out The Riddle of Steel.  In particular, check out the Combat Simulator, which lets you run through the combat system.  I can testify that there are several people here on the Forge who have sat around playing with this game just for the combat system.

Battlefield tactics? Next to naught. Oh, you mean as in moving/positioning the mini's or real life battlefield tactics? I mean sure, I may have rules for flanking etc. but really the focus is on in your face celestial weapons, martial arts combo manoeuvres and displays of cool mystic powers rather than traditional tactical warfare.

Have you played any CCGs?  Because this is where CCGs shine.  They are all about combos.  "Card A does this, and Card B does this.  String them together, and they do this."  A non-collectible game that has a similar feel is Blue Moon.

So, have you considered that maybe you want to make a card game, or at least abstract the action with cards?  Think about it like this.  "Maneuvering for position" becomes a matter of playing certain cards that give certain bonuses to your next attack/defense/whatever.  String together several different cards for maximum butt-kicking enjoyment.

So then, gameplay breaks into two phases.  The first is where you construct your deck of maneuvers, based on your powers/martial arts/chi focus/gunplay/whatever.  This happens in between arena combats, of course, and the player is trying to build a fighter that has potential to put together some solid combos.  Then comes the actual combat, where the players should be jockeying to set themselves up (through resource acquisition or some such thing) to be able to unleash massive card combos.  Thus actual gameplay isn't just die rolling, but instead it requires hand management and contingency planning from the players as they try to achieve dominance in the arena.

And I think that your idea of just jumping in is a great idea.  It can be easy to think too much about design before putting pen to paper.  The goal of the Ronnies elsewhere on this site is (partially) to get people to take this first step of just jumping in and doing it.  So go for it!  Get your alpha version kicked around and see where it takes you.  I, for one, will be interested to see where it goes.

Good luck!

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

Since Meatbot Massacre seems to float your boat, I now suggest that you play it, post about playing it in Actual Play, and then take what you learn there back into this forum for a new thread. Again, the point is not to make your game like Meatbot Massacre, but to generate a better understanding of what you want and will write for your game.

Best,
Ron

[Latreya Sena]

Seth, I think I may have misunderstood you. I may have been needlessly wrangling over definitions but now I see, with more of your CCG examples that you are simply saying: why not use a different medium?

Well, it's already been done with cards. I bought my nephew a Yu-Gi-Oh starter kit and read the instructions, which I found pretty uninspiring, but that might be unfair as I haven't actually played it. Blue Moon looks interesting (at least you don't have to spend a fortune before you can play it)

On the other hand I haven't been able to find a 'wargame' that supports this type of play. O.K. d20 does it well for D&D and Star Wars, but where's the manga action that we all know so well from arcade gaming? As I want to imitate arcade/PC games, animations/cartoons I really prefer the visual replication of scaled down miniatures in an arena and more focus on the individual characters. So for these reasons I'm pretty keen to stick with the skirmish/wargame model.

Yep, I'm well aware that TROS has the uber combat system. It was the first game to come to mind and I revisited the quick start rules and the combat simulator. But aside from some basic structure of combat (and minimal dice rolling) I think our goals diverge immensely. TROS aims at gritty realism whereas I'm going for over-the-top fantasy. TROS uses a dice pool, not a wise choice when using miniatures I think. TROS has shock, pain, and blood loss to represent damage, I want a health bar! (not sure what I'll use for this; tokens, dice, whatever, I want it to be red) and a mana bar (which will be blue of course). TROS focuses on attacks to various body zones; I don't want to do this. I think SA's are a big part of TROS combat too and I can't have them in this game.

Having said that, do any TROS players use miniatures and moving rules? I would certainly be interested if they do.

And Ron, I totally believe I am in that .1% of the population that have what it takes to be a Meatjock. Every now and then at work, little things like the 'grandstand' pop up in my head and I have a good giggle. So I'll see what I can swing together, give me a couple of weeks.

Latreya.

[zematus]

I don't think I saw anyone suggest Anachronism... the cardgame published by The Discovery Channel?  It's about pseudo-historical figures fighting in an arena.  I don't know if it involves "kewl powerz" (never actually played it - just watched a game or two) but it definitely makes use of strategic movement, equipment and abilities, all with a limited hand of cards.  Plays *very* quick...a single fight takes on the order of 5 minutes or less.  Might be worth a look for comparison.

[Latreya Sena]

Hey thanks, I'll check it out. Very swish website.

Latreya.