[Middle Earth - home brew] - a "new" player's perspective.

[Silmenume]

The following was an email sent to my GM by a player who is relatively new to our table.

We had the usual cast of players plus 3 irregulars.
Chuck – playing a Rohirric Prince that the GM revealed was Eomund from the LOTR. Chuck had offered that he would like to play a new character that was a Rohirric Prince who was "on walk-about" as it were.  That he was Eomund was news to him.
Montana – [player of Eglambar in my previous thread]He played an existing character by the name of Morgan was an outlaw that had killed both a Ranger of Ithilien and a "Black Cloak".  (Think Inquisitor for the Steward whom was charged to root out any traitors to the crown by any means necessary.)  The day before we played he was campaigning very, very hard to play "the bastard son of Turandir, heir to Gurthang."  Turandir was an important and extremely powerful character that I had written about in here – (Middle Earth - home brew)1st day in July 4 week of play.  The GM had indicated to both Chris and I, in confidence, that this character of Montana's bore a powerful resemblance to Turandir.  Montana did not know this – so it was going to be interesting to see how this was going to play out.  Chris and I quickly agreed that whatever happened that night his survival was more important than anyone else's with the exception of our own lives.
Dave – [player of Durizon in my previous thread.]He also played an existing character by the name of "Bones" that was a very experienced mercenary who had a staggering amount of medical knowledge.
Chris - [player of Nicodemis in my previous thread]He played his Dunedain by the mannish name of Raven.  He is my character's brother.  His Quenya name is "Beliraumo" – the Mighty Storm.
Josh – played a new character that was a Ranger of Ithilien.  His name escapes me though I do have it written down.
John – also played a new character that was a young man who was beaten down by the local boys of his age for year.  He bore the physical and psychological wounds of fending for himself since the age of seven in such an unrelenting environment.  He was not without a few friendly acquaintances but they were no more than that and hated most of the rest of the towns folk.  His name escapes me though I do have it written down.
Jay – that's me!  I also played my Dunedain who is brother to Raven and I go by the mannish name of Bannon.  Both Raven and I were not present at the massacre of Tharbad that I had mentioned in a previous thread, but the rest of our entire family was annihilated.  Our family line bore the appellation of "Storm" (Raumo in Quenya) and both Raven and I are referred to as Sons of the Storm – which is just too cool!  My Quenya name is Coiraumo – The Living Storm.  This too is a very powerful character.
Mike – a relatively new player who had a new Character that was also a Ranger of Ithilien.  His name escapes me though I do have it written down.  He is the player that wrote the letter that I have posted below.  His "in" to the game is that he is friends with Dave.

As anyone who had read my previous postings will know some of the baggage I've been carrying recently.  I have posted this letter from Mike (the relatively new player that I mentioned above) to provide the perspective of a new player.  Rather than go into the specifics of the scenario I thought it would be interesting to provide a commentary that focused mostly on the Social Contract level.  IOW his experiences about what transpired that night.

I had a different perspective on the night's activities, which is why I thought it so interesting to post the feelings of a "newbie."  Much of what he wrote reminded me of my own early experiences in the game which I do recall with great fondness.  I'm not sure if I am looking for anything in particular as this is pretty much a "data dump" and a contrast piece of how a new players views the game.  I think his young to the game perspective and my perspective which I have posted recently is instructional about the Sim process.

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Dave will tell you, even though he probably regrets the length of the call, after every session he has called me the next day and asked my opinion.

The responses have been varied, sometimes I am disappointed and sometimes ecstatic.  The reasons can be personal or directed, either at myself or another player.  I have been both pleased and unhappy with my performance at a single session and I have been excited about the performance of the other players as well as upset.  When things go well it has also been a reason for various emotions, good and bad.  Sometimes the 'went well' scenario doesn't lend itself to feeling 'satisfied' with the overall play.

However, that is what is so great about playing the game the way we play it, it is impossible to predict what will happen, what reaction it will cause or how everyone at the table will come away from the game.  Typically there will, in my opinion, be those who feel great about what has occurred, those that feel good and those with some regret..........  last night Cary I think everyone was more than pleased, I think everyone came away from the session with a feeling of elation.

I truly enjoyed the 'total' package of the game play and have a feeling that the others did also. having said that I would like to explain........

I just erased several paragraphs because I remembered you said you have been busy catching up and reading my biased opinion stated over many boring paragraphs will not help you to 'catch up'.

Anyhow, after things began to move and Chuck went into the pit I think every player at the table made a decision, "We are all dead."   Regardless if that was a reality I think it crossed everyone's mind as the only outcome.  So, without knowing it we each made a determined decision, we decided to simply make the best of it, play and enjoy.  And that held each of us and made for a fantastic experience.  All the dynamics that exist seemed to reverse and I watched with amazement as the various players worked together and individually to simply stay in the moment.

I was told that John works hard to be 'evil' and enjoys being 'evil'.  I watched as 2 other players caused him to give up his personal desire and inspire him to be something else.  And then, amazingly, his unselfish attitude inspired others to sacrifice and be better themselves.  Montana, who I admire by the way, can sometimes be selfish when it comes to the goals of his character, he will sacrifice game-play, fun and the satisfaction of the group if it is counter to the development of his character's goals or mission.  (This is not necessarily a bad thing)  And, knowing he was killing a character that he is obviously fond of and wanting to develop, he made decisions that were completely against his normal course, he was willing to sacrifice himself for others, he committed to some things when he could have chosen a more selfish path and, in doing so, helped to force the entire group to rejoin one another. 

While I simply got dragged off (understand why and not reducing my own roll) into the underworld, Montana was able to use his 'dragging off' as a rallying point to inspire others to 'pull things' back together.  Chuck and Chris refusing to give up, Jay's astounding connection to the importance of the Dunedain and their ability to inspire was emotional.  Even Blake, surely the first to die, miraculously pulling things out and being a human fireball..... wow.  In fact, I think Blake somehow inspired Dave's amazing use of fire, even though most of it was the most ungodly display of imagination I have ever seen, I still think Blake helped to perpetuate Dave's actions.   And Josh, loosing a character in which he was obviously very connected and hopeful for,2 seemed to crush him only to watch as he stole the show at the end and showed some strong character.  My choice to join the 'dark side' would have been easy, I know we have developed several 'evil' class characters recently and are all headed to playing a group of 'evil' characters... I could have chosen to try to predict the future and manipulate things to my own ends by allowing myself to be taken and 'be special'. ( ssss You are ssspecial  are not words I will forget )

However, inspired by John's astounding decision to reclaim his humanity, the decision for me to be 'true' to my character and give up my own life and ranger character was one in which I did not hesitate.  I didn't like it, as I have a connection to the 'ranger' that most at the table can't understand.... I lived to be that person, I worked for 25 years to be that noble and honest, I couldn't achieve it in real life but at the table I could be that in this character.  And, Cary, I felt spitting in her face was too simple, it would not have made the statement I wanted to make, I needed everyone to know my character was afraid but could not give up his honor, I rolled a 20, I could have tried for one last attempt to escape, instead I chose to crap my pants, and deny her the pleasure of having me submit.   I was completely convinced that I was giving into death for this character, to be saved was not even a remote hope... and, wow, the guys pulled it out of their freeking arses.

Amazing evening Cary, the best I have ever been part of because the group dynamic seemed to bring it all together.  I wasn't even a major player, wasn't really involved, didn't have an exciting part to play and certainly didn't dominate the action but had the best time.  Even the down times, for which you felt the need to apologize and promise folks you would get to them, was not really the downtimes you thought them to be.... the table was engrossed, for once I didn't see folks jealous of the time you spent with others because the individual play seemed to inspire the group play. 

Oh well, I'm not erasing any more paragraphs, sorry, I just needed to tell you how great I thought last night was.....

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Again, I'm not sure that I am looking for anything specific other to offer a new player perspective on the game I play in.  As a new player I too had found the game to be just as rich, enchanting and overwhelming in its intensity.

[contracycle]

Rather than go into the specifics of the scenario I thought it would be interesting to provide a commentary that focused mostly on the Social Contract level.  IOW his experiences about what transpired that night.

I had a different perspective on the night's activities, which is why I thought it so interesting to post the feelings of a "newbie."

Were your own views on this session much different, then?

[jrs]

Jay,

I'm sure this is simply an oversight, but you did have permission to post Mike's email to your GM, right?

Julie

[Silmenume]

Hi Julie,

The answer is, "Yes."  Good question to ask, though.

Hey contracycle,

My views were somewhat different.

The scenario was unfolding as a mystery with the whole town, less five or so NPC's, gone missing.  Food on the tables, some coals left in the hearths kind of thing.  By the point I and Chris (Bannon and Rave) showed up in the scenario Montana was on his way out of town after bumping heads with Chuck's character.  Rather than find ways to "stay together" Chuck again fell back on his NPC's and made no noticeable effort (to my mind at least) to bond with any PC's.

One of the things in Mike's letter caught my eye as something that I've been called on a number of times here at the Forge.

Anyhow, after things began to move and Chuck went into the pit I think every player at the table made a decision, "We are all dead."

The speed and brevity at which he moved over this point was particularly interesting.  A number of times I've made such quick remarks and moved on which resulted in some serious howls of incredulousness by other posters.  Having been made aware of these "throw aways" and then being witness to one was illuminating to me.  You see, what Mike had quickly noted and moved on was a rather pivotal moment in the night.  Up until that moment the mystery was unfolding and while there was a sense of urgency there was no sense of immediacy.

Not long after we arrived at the hole or "pit" as Mike referred to it we lit a curtain and tossed it down the hole to get some idea of what we were facing.  Before entering this house we had found tress with extraordinarily large webbing and the house itself had a lots of "large" spiders.  We were going to clean out the house so as to make sure nothing was "at our backs" before we went in.  When the lit curtains hit bottom we could hear people screaming in panic and fear.  Chris and I tried to maintain control over the group so as to not go rushing in pell-mell.  Then a little girl came into view from below pleading and crying for help.  Again Chris and I attempted to hold order while Chris had the 2 Rangers nock their arrows and hold until we could see what we were facing.  Then the GM turned to Chuck and spent 15 or so minutes filling in back story about his Rohirric Prince and how he has a little girl and how she is of similar age and how he, as a the Chief Marshal of the Ridder Mark fights battles for those who are helpless all the time, etc. ... Chuck jumped down into the pit.  From there it was only a couple of minutes before he was surrounded by onrushing giant spiders and then the rest of the house was assaulted by giant spiders.  The speed with which we were driven into the hole was, in my opinion, heavy handed.

But this is where it gets interesting, theory wise.  The new(ish) player, Mike, didn't really register how this event unfolded as all that noteworthy and certainly not the same as I had perceived it.  Being new to the game, everything is fresh and novel to Mike.  IOW he doesn't have a long baseline by which to make sense of things.  So he's in the golden age of the abductive-inductive-deductive logic cycle.  Like a child playing with colored paints for the first time, everything and I mean everything he learns he can do with them is a discovery and just plain exciting!  He's up to his bottom lip trying to make sense of the world (logic it out) while doing things - which is the core Sim process.

So for him he's getting to engage the Sim process at a very rapid, almost overwhelming pace, while I, who has played for many years, have a very deep baseline understanding of how lots of things do work – the pace is much slower.  Thus the focus of my perspective can and does tend to shift from the SIS towards the Social Contract.  IOW the game isn't as fast paced or as rich as it once was and as a result I tend to spend more time (because less time is needed trying to figure out the SIS) trying to logic out what the Players are up to.  I know the world so well that for the most part I can "glide" through all but the most novel or vexing of circumstances.

But it hasn't always that way for me, and I think that is telling.  I've grown to complain more as the pace of logic has slowed down.  Idle hands and all that stuff, as it were.  Yet it does explain why the sessions are much more interesting, compelling, etc. when I am playing a new character, a character I haven't played in so long that it might as well be "new," playing in a brand new area of the world, encountering a magic weapon (which is sooooooo rare that it is practically a new event), etc.

Continuing on –

Where Mike saw Chuck and Chris being inspirational in their "refusing to give up," I saw that as dead center of their typical mode of play.  Novel and thus interesting to him, old shakes and not particularly interesting to me.

What Mike saw as Dave's "ungodly display of imagination," I read as Dave doing everything that Dave can do to survive – even if that means having to shed some persona pieces.  ... and that is basically what happened here, again.

For my own part, "Jay's astounding connection to the importance of the Dunedain and their ability to inspire..." I felt I wasn't breaking any new ground either.  I felt a little like a one trick pony – not particularly excited about what I brought to the table.

What was interesting to me was John's choice of death over going "evil."  This peaked my interest enough that I tried to go back into the hole to save him though I knew he was being hotly pursued "hundreds" of spiders plus a "Lolth" like queen.  This choice by John was so important to me that I was willing to put one of my favorite characters in very real mortal risk to show John what I thought about his choice.  It was not to be, but alas – I really did want to show him.

So on one level, I can see how Mike's perceptions were valid and true, we did pull together to try and get everyone out but for my part I was more intensely aware of the players and the significance of their choices.

I am beginning to think this as inevitable, over time, in Sim.  While there is no inherent stopping point in Sim play, the nature of the Dream can become so well known as to eventually render the game bereft of opportunities for the players to engage the logic cycle.  In the mean time focus slowly, over years, drifts (or can drift) from the SIS to the players themselves.  I wonder if this is "solvable" or just an end point.

[Walt Freitag]

Jay,

I'm curious: What prevented your character from going back into the hole to attempt to save John's character?

Then the GM turned to Chuck and spent 15 or so minutes filling in back story about his Rohirric Prince and how he has a little girl and how she is of similar age and how he, as a the Chief Marshal of the Ridder Mark fights battles for those who are helpless all the time, etc. ... Chuck jumped down into the pit.

:-O

- Walt

[JMendes]

Hey, :)

I want to isolate and ponder these words:

in Sim play, the nature of the Dream can become so well known as to eventually render the game bereft of opportunities for the players to engage the logic cycle

I don't know if it's true or not, and I offer no words in either support or disagreement, but I think this is a point that can be studied on its own merits. I think that, when folks here said that theory should be developed through Actual Play, this is what they were talking about.

So, yeah, I'll be pondering on this. Cool topic.

Cheers,
J.

[Silmenume]

Walt,

I actually made two attempts to save John's character.

The first attempt was made impossible by the physical circumstances.  Upon our escape from the lair at a location different from whence we had entered, Dave unleashed a small avalanche that closed about 90% of the opening.  Both Chris and I made an effort to get to his character but that he was on the cave side of the avalanche while we were on the outside posed a difficult problem.  By the time we got to the open space the cave side was innundated with the hundreds of "giant" spiders and the "Queen" that were pursuing us.  Seeing the desperateness of the situation, rather than risk the lives of our characters John fed up his character to the spiders.

The second attempt came when a wing of the eored that was shadowing their Chief Marshal (Chuck) arrived after our initial escape.  Chuck ordered a "cleansing" of the hole and Chris and I went into the hole a second time.  One of our intentions was to try and rescue the two Rangers PC's who did not make it out with us as well as to try and find John's character.  OOC we knew bad things had happened to him but we made the effort nonetheless.  We never found him.

Hey João,

I am looking forward to any thoughts that you wish to share!

[Silmenume]

Here is a conversation I had with "Papa Mike."  Yes, I have permission to post it here.  I hope that posting immediately after myself isn't a breach of protocol.

[16:28]

Papa Mike: saw an old friend of yours    Mike Strauss used to play with you guys   met him in a gaming store when I was buying dice
[16:28] Me: he sent me an email about that.
[16:28] Me: How did the conversation come about?
[16:28] Papa Mike: this guy remembered everyone of your names and knew I was playing with cary just by my description of how we played
[16:29] Me: He does have a near photographic memory for names and such
[16:29] Papa Mike: It was kinda amazing   I just said I play but it is more roleplaying and not so much dice   things are dependant on how you react  He said  Oh, you must be playing with Cary Solomon
[16:29] Papa Mike: I was amazed[/list]

I included this only to indicate, from a source that is not myself, of the potential power of this style of play.  It was so a powerful experience that Mike Strauss, who now lives some 40-50 miles away and has been some years away from our table, put together that this customer, "Papa Mike," despite the unlikelihood that a person from so far away could actually play in the same game and given such a short description deduced that "Papa Mike" was describing the game I play in.  Sim need not be dull or plodding.

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[16:37]

Papa Mike: I was simply overwhelmed by the exceptional play last week   even though my part was minimal I had the best time ever
[16:37] Me: I understand exactly
[16:38] Papa Mike: I think that the group was irratated somewhat by my wizard and his propensity to TALK alot but that is what an intelligent person does talks his way out of stuff
[16:39] Papa Mike: I try to be the character Cary gives me    even though my understanding of the world the characters live in isn't as great as the others at the table I can still try to feel the part and act accordingly[/list]

This I included as an example of what was actually a Social Contract issue.  It wasn't that his portrayal of his character as "talky" that was a problem, but an issue of "how" he handled himself at the table.  He had not yet figured out the rhythm and flow of the game and when to cut in and when to wait.  Even now, after years of play, I cannot objectively describe how that rhythm words, its just something that you begin to get a feel for.  There probably is some sort of unofficial "rule," but I cannot induce what it is so far.  Also, born from the habit of being a police officer for over 20 years he did tend to trample, verbally, over the other players at the table.

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[16:47]

Papa Mike: I do not view myself as anywhere close to the level of player that you guys are but I will not lay down and die just because I respect you guys.  It isn't in me to not be the person that I am
[16:47] Papa Mike: I think the game depends on that
[16:48] Papa Mike: I have a learning curve that is about 15 years behind you guys   and it creates unique problems for us all
[16:49] Papa Mike: I am a pure roleplayer because I only know that style  I have NEVER player D & D before you guys and the little things that come naturally to you guys are a struggle for me even as to which dice to roll
[16:51] Me: I understand[/list]

This time of his learning curve will in all likelihood represent the most intense, the most "real," portion of his time at the table.  Never more will the Dream seem as vivid and as emotionally compelling as it will here.  This, I believe, is due to the fact that that he is scrambling so hard to induce the "rules of the world" – be they mechanics, in game social, in game physical, how combat "works," what he can and cannot bring into the Dream, etc via "problems" that arise in the SIS.  He doesn't yet understand what causes these problems and thus must consider everything that is going on to try and make sense of it.  This is also why even having such a "small part" in the play cycle can seem so exciting – he's collecting vast amounts of data – by watching how we deal with "problems" in the SIS.  This phase of the game is where the player must engage the logic cycle most frequently; hence the Dream is most vivid here.

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[17:00]

Papa Mike: your use of elvish and inspiring play truly was something to behold    I would never have been capable of doing that
[17:01] Papa Mike: even if the words were in front of me it wasn't the words but the emotion they brought to the moment
[17:02] Papa Mike: Chris and you are perfect in your ability to cause the 2 characters to inspire.   I think the whole table stepped it up a notch based on the presence of your characters  which, in the end, means you guys helped us all step it up a notch by how you rp'd them
[17:04] Papa Mike: Montana's reversal was the most amazing in my opinion   he went almost against everything I have ever seen him do in the past based on their presence... his understanding of who and what they are and rp'ing it to the point of letting it effect his own decision making process was amazing
[17:05] Papa Mike: I was very impressed... all the time knowing that he knew he was acting out of character he continued to do it    he even said himself that he couldn't understand why he was doing what he was doing  AMAZING[/list]

However, as he gets to know the functioning of the Dream better and better I do believe that he will, in time, become just as capable of "doing such things" as I have.  What blew Mike away as being "unreachable," only felt like a minor stretch for me.  This is not to toot my own horn, but rather an attempt to shore up my argument that as one grows familiar with the "rules" of the functioning of the Dream it becomes easier and easier to play.  The problems that arise in play become less intractable and thus the intensity of play tends, I believe, to decrease over time.

Just some more data points ---

[Precious Villain]

Slight tangent here, Jay.  Do you believe that this problem of familiarity with the Dream is one of the motivators behind "Team Evil"?  That is, perhaps the Dream could be extended by approaching it from a drastically different direction?

[Silmenume]

Slight tangent here, Jay.  Do you believe that this problem of familiarity with the Dream is one of the motivators behind "Team Evil"?  That is, perhaps the Dream could be extended by approaching it from a drastically different direction?

In my opinion, most assuredly, yes.