DM vs. Players

[Saxon Douglass]

I thought i'd posted this before, but I searched for it and found nothing. So sorry if I posted this earlier ;)

I've been hanging around these boards for a while now and have posted several ideas for RPGs before, requesting help (mostly with what the actual goals are). I dropped all of them for various reasons, spanning time to lack of premise. I now have an idea that I have a firm grasp on, but need help on some things still.

The game is called "DM vs. Players" for now. It is a rework of D&D3.5, I make no claims otherwise. But I feel it isn't a fantasy heartbreaker because it actually has a clear aim, and a clear end-point. The idea is that a group of players, called Adventurers, delve into a dungeon controlled by the Dungeon Master. The DM represents the "soul" or "life" of the dungeon, possibly embodied by a Big Bad Evil Guy at the end.

The goal for the players is to wipe out the dungeon, and leave the DM with no room to move (thereby clearing out the dungeon of evil and treasure). The DM's goal is to kill all of the players, and thereby surviving for another group of adventurers.

It's basically boiling D&D down to a basic form, giving it a clear goal and setting (you are always in a dungeon, and your sole goal is to finish that dungeon). I also wanted the DM to be able to play no-holds-barred, and so I decided they should have Dungeon Points (DP) to spend on monsters, traps, and treasure.

From here on I'm only proposing ideas, because how this all mechanically works I'm not sure yet. But lets say the DM starts with 20 DP. The players all make characters that cover the main archetypes (mage, warrior, and thief). They start off in a room with 1 door: this is the entrance chamber and is empty of any DM-made things.

As soon as the party opens the next door the DM gets to have some fun. The DM buys things in the coming room with his DP, and places them as he (or she ofcourse ;) ) wishes. Once this buying process is done the players are described the room and left to explore. If the DM put in monsters he controls them, etc. During this buying process the room starts with 3 other doors, and the DM can buy 2 of them away (thereby tunelling the players towards a particular route).

The thing with this is that the DM runs out of DP quite quickly (in theory atleast). And where do treasures come in? I thought that maybe treasures could be sorta like "rebate". By giving the adventurers treasure you gain points to spend on other challenges. In this way you have successivley greater treasures being handed out as the DM gets more desparate for points.

Once the DM runs out of points, the "showdown" begins. The showdown is where the DM gets given 10 points and access to special "showdown" creatures (bosses). The DM then goes all out, trying to kill the players. If the DM kills all the player s/he wins, if the player kill all the DM's creations then they win. The game is over.

The things i'm having trouble with deciding are how player's make their characters, and the general flow of DM conflict. I know it'll need lots of playtesting to work most of the kinks out, but it isn't really playable yet. I do have an idea of the basic task resolution though (which is similar to d20). You roll d6+modifiers and compare to d6+difficulty. It means there is a reasnoble degree of randomness, and uses the type of dice most people are used to.

So my questions are:

- General thoughts/comments

- System of adventurer creation

- General flow of events (stuff like how the showdown works, etc.)

[sirogit]

I think there are two games you should look at.

1) Tunnels and Trolls, paticularly for it's saving roll mechanic - The harder the GM makes it for the players, the more expierience they get and the better they are at overcoming those challenges.

2) (Shameless self promotion) My game, Crazy Train, which is similar but is instead a take on Illusionism in general, boiling it down to a contest between the GM and player.

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It seems to me like you don't want Dungeon points to be permanantly depleted and yet you want there to a certain time for the showdown to occur. May I suggest that they be judged on different basises? Like there's DP available, and there's DP spent, and you might start out with 20 DP, but gain 20 more in the dungeon, but after spending 25 you've already hit the "Showdown limit" and therefore the climatic events occur.

[Saxon Douglass]

I've checked your game out and parts of it are similar to how I see mine. I'd checkout Tunnels and Trolls but I live in Australia and it says shipping here is alot.

As you said basing it on DP is a problem because the DM will just keep giving treasures when they are desparate, causing the session to never end. Maybe instead make it that you can never earn more than your starting amount. This means that if you start with 20 DP you can never have earned over 40. So once you've gained an extra 20 through treasure, you have to use up your last points and go to the showdown.

I'm not sure how to handle characters though. They don't gain "experience", I have decided that much. But should there be races, classes, skills, feats, traits, talents, attributes... the list goes on! The simplest way to do it would be Human, Elf, Dwarf, Gnome, Orc, etc. With each being an entire package within themselves. But that's not a very diverse bunch.

I see two possible ways to go on this. Either have a series of Races and Classes, each having something unique about them (think the guilds in MtG Ravnica block). The other is to have generic skills you buy with points. The second option gives more flexibility but I think 20 unique and fun options is better than 100 bland and dull ones.

An example of this "unique gameplay" might be a Monk's ability to paralyse an enemy just by hitting them with their fist. Another might be a Thief's ability to re-roll a Dodge check if they do badly the first time. Making the only two options Race and Class should mean character creation is a very quick process. I'd also need to try and avoid mechanical bonuses, such as just +1 to Trap checks. Bonuses are nice, but everyone prefers "abilities" like rerolls or special moves they can pull off.

[Callan S.]

Hi Saxon, welcome to the forge!

Do you have any concerns that the game might boil down to pure number manipulation? That the imaginary world wont really be included because it wont be the best way for the GM to use the system?

Could you perhaps have a system where the players are verses themselves? Like they say "I'll take on that, that and that monster...cause, like, I'm that good!". And from the risky situations they can take, some are purely mechanical, but some include room for the GM to make choices based on the game world. The players don't have to take those, but if they do, it's because they think they can take the game world on.

[JMendes]

Hi, Saxon, :)

Cool idea! You need to go and check Rune by Robin Laws. Points to build the dungeon are what that game is all about. It also has a rotating GM scheme, which, when the GM is playing no holds barred, is actually pretty cool.

We tried Rune ourselves for a while and found that it degenerates into a board game, but the game has a very solid follower community, so that's not everyone's experience. Either way, as a design concept, it's a must read!

Cheers,
J.

[Thunder_God]

I want to second Rune.

Also, what purpose does the "3 doors" have? The DM Tunnels the party anyway, as nothing is created so long that the party doesn't enter the room...