[Kanthe] Watch Out for Beaked Snakes!

[talysman]

Callan asked in the [Kanthe] How Freaky Is This? thread for some actual play descriptions of this solitaire roguelike dungeoncrawl game. I played two playtests, one using the original version of the rules, the other with v1.1, which I haven't uploaded. I'm already making notes on v1.2, which is what I want to upload and ask for playtesting help on; I'll have it ready in about two days, I think. Playtests for a solitaire dungeoncrawl game are going to read a little differently than normal RPG actual play, since a solitaire game is going to mainly be about challenge and detail. Kanthe creates a lot of its detail with a couple ten-item tables, several of which are user-defined on a per-dungeon basis; there's also a lot of interpretation going on, where you roll a couple descriptors and describe the results based on what has happened before in the fiction you're creating.

I created one dungeon level, room density 6, for both playtests, using the v1.1 rules. I had already tested the v1.0 map rules separately and determined that the v1.1 rules were better because it had more branching. Maps in v1.0 tended to be just one big loop in each quadrant.

I used a pretty ordinary humanoid theme of goblins and dwarves on my design sheets. The Arcane Descriptors (Colors, Changes, Qualities, and Motifs) were fairly standard; I later reused them for the v1.1 playtest, to be sure how rules differences would change the Discovery results.

Room Features in both v1.0 and v1.1 are completely user-defined, but I will probably officially define them, if for no other reason than to give players an idea how to create their own room features. Here is the list I came up with for my playtest, which I reused without the notes on what to roll for the next playtest:

statue: roll Occupant        
rocks: roll size/number        
bag              
trapdoor           
chest: roll locks        
fountain: roll Color/Quality
throne: roll Color/Motif     
corpse: roll Occupant           
altar: roll Motif        
well: roll Essence + Map     

The v1.0 rules also have you create a list of beasts and modified beasts. I ran into some trouble with the modified beasts because there was too much repetition and uncertainty on how to handle differences in descriptor matches. I did away with this method of generation for v1.1, but I did have some exotic choices on this list like "hooved ape", "beaked snake", and "fangtailed bear".

I decided to start exploring the Northeast corner first. In v1.0 rules, you roll for a Mobile (or Wandering) Hazard the first time you enter the same Area (quadrant) as the Hazard. I encountered one immediately, and was attacked by two +2 snakes, one of which was a golden beaked snake. I get two bonus dice in this version of the rules because armor is treated as a bonus instead of as a defense, plus I gave the snakes a 1-die bonus for one of them having a beak; that made this a 7 dice v 5 dice conflict. COnflicts turned out to require a number of die rolls because of the need to get matches in v1.0, so I saw my 7-to-5 advantage turn into an 8-to-5 on the next role after wounding a snake, then 8-to-4 (I killed one snake, but have one wound,) then kill the second snake after getting one more wound.

I had an extra +4 action from that conflict, so I used it for stealth, to see how the system would handle it. Situational Advantages like sneaking only count as an extra die (no matter what their actual strength) in the v1.0 rules, however, so when I enter the first room, where a +2 jackal is guarding a well at the base of a statue of a beaked snake, I'm not ar as great an advantage as you might think. The jackal still gets in one wound (damn that unprotective armor!) before I kill it.

I check the well, because I decide I want to use the water to heal. I trigger a "Bad Footing" trap, with descriptors Metal, Glowing, and Light, so I describe it as bright, glowing ball bearings spilling out of the base of the well onto the floor. That's pretty descriptive, but I realize here that I'm going to need to define traps better, since a Bad Footing trap does nothing when you aren't in combat. They turned out useful, though, because I used them as a
light source (situation advantage) after I heal one wound and begin searching the room. I find a +3 item, which I decide is +3 bandages, which I use to heal the remaining wound (but since the healing rules weren't well-defined at this point, other than "attack the strength of the wound", I get a mixed result and interpret it as partial heal.)

I go to the next feature room in this area. There is a +2 bag and corpses of a goblin chieftain and his dwarf slave. Because I identified corpses by rolling on the Occupants table and the old table includes beefed-up roles like "chieftain: roll for weapons and armor", this is kind of a crock; I find a +3 golden ax without having to deal with any danger. I loot the bodies to see if I can find anything else, and trigger another ineffectual "Bad Footing" trap (gravel,) but find a white foamy potion. I also loot the bag, which turns out to be empty except for
spiders... non-poisonous, luckily, but I make a note that I need to define this a little better.

I take the bag with me and head to the Northwest corner. First thing to encounter there is a Tunnel Obstacle (Stationary Hazard): a covereed pit filled with Fire and Spirit, which I interpret as "the souls of the damned". I fall into the pit and take a wound, then escape before taking more damage, but since I have to use the Spirit part as more than just a colorful descriptor, I decide a fiery damned soul emerged from the pit after me. I run, but it gets in another wound before I escape.

I go back to room with the well, since I now have 3 wounds. I use water from the well for healing, but only partially heal one wound. I'm pretty desperate and haven't searched the statue yet, so I try that, but find nothing. What the hell, I'll risk drinking the potion: Discovery only identifies one descriptor ("foamy" = Hold,) but the potion does nothing.

I go back to the central room and take the Southwest corner. That beefed-up v1.0 Occupant table doesn't seem so hot now, because my next result is a goblin sorcerer. Because this is only the first level of the dungeon, he doesn't have enough dice to roll any serious matches and gets no spells, so he's not much of a sorcerer. Still, he has a greenwood staff and a dwarf slave. With three wounds, I'm not sure I should risk another combat, so I try a social attack instead, asking for help and claiming to be a friend. I do wound him once socially, but that doesn't stop his action, which is to use his magic staff against me. This is where I find out how broken the old Discovery and arcane item rules are, because it takes a couple turns for him to even use the staff; I get in another social wound before he activates its Hold Air feature and encases me in an invisible aery shell.

I switch to physical attacks to try to break out of my shell while the goblin and his slave struggle to pick me up, shell and all, and carry me to the fiery pit. They have to do "Move Wounds" to lift me, so this gives me some time to break free. The goblin tries to put up the invisible wall version of the staff's power, but due to the broken arcane item usage rules, he's not able to finish it before I kill him. I do some quick social wounds on the dwarf slave to turn him into my ally, then give him my old sword. I don't find anything else on the goblin's body beside the staff.

I test out a few more things before calling it quits on this playtest. No more encounters or treasure finds, but I had further evidence that traps and healing aren't working correctly yet. I tried searching for a secret door and found one, with stairs going down. No, I don't think I'll go down there; these rules are mostly stacked against me, and I still have two wounds.

Lessons learned from this playtest: aside from some specific things that need to be fixed, the game is looking pretty good for a solitaire game. The conflicts are challenging, (maybe a little too much...) and free-associating from descriptors creates a lot of detail. Since in theory there's nothing stopping a group from playing collaboratively "against the dice", it would be interesting to see if there's any difference in group interpretation of Discovery results compared to solitaire play.

[talysman]

I should have checked the links as well as the formatting before posting. The dungeon map is here. Sorry about that.

[talysman]

This post is the second playtest, for v1.1 version of the rules.

I used the same dungeon level, room density 6, that I used for playtest #1. I also reused the room features, colors, physical changes, liquid qualities, and visual motifs I used for that playtest. I had to create a list of creatures to use with the new Occupants table, which isn't the same as the original table. No more sorcerers or priests as common occupants; you can only find them in Chambers, now (which is another new rule in development.)

I did not finish writing up a "pretty" version of the complete v1.1 rules, but here are the core changes.

Creatures for this playtest: Vermin: spiders; Prey: rats, snakes, weasels; Herd animal: pig; Predator: jackal; Outsiders: elf, zombie; Denizen: dwarf; Minion: goblin; Overlord: orc. Special Chambers were: Shrine, Kitchen, Crypt, Rat Warren. This turned out to be too much; I didn't find most of these, for reasons I'll explain later.

I did as before, heading Northeast first. The new rules require a check as you approach a room, to see if there's a door. There wasn't. The room contained a +2 red, spiral-covered statue of elf with a tail, no occupant. Searching found nothing and didn't trigger a Wandering Hazard. The next room likewise had no door; it featured a +2 red, spiral-covered statue of pig with stone horns. Again, searching found nothing. I even tried searching for a secret door, no luck.

I returned to first room and triggered the Wandering Hazard this time: a swirling vortex of brown water mixed with spirits, shards of glass, and flashes of light. I decided to evade it and narrowly escaped.

Crossing back to the Northwest corner to the Tunnel Obstacle marker, I encounter pit, this time filled with orange stones and a fleshy silver pseudopod that darts out of wall to strike those who fall in the pit. I avoided the pit, however, and backed up to the intersection, then headed north. The room there is empty. I head west and find I can't enter the next room immediately; there's a +2 purple wooden door with stone spikes spikes and a +1 lock barring my way.

I easily open lock and door, but there's nothing in the room. This is annoying, so I search and find a +2 wooden sword. I then open the west door (Hmm, I need to do something about locks and descriptions for doors in Type 6 Rooms...)

The simple room behind the door has the first creature encounter of this playtest: a +2 orange-clawed goblin with a +1 green wooden club and +2 gilt leather armor. There's more of a exchange in the new Conflict system, but I have to combine many of my actions in order to get through his armor and wound him. He actually does the first wound as a result. I take three wounds total, but manage to kill him with the help of a flanking maneuver to add a bonus die to my roll. Combat took about 25 minutes to resolve, which seems kind of long.

I heal two wounds by drinking water from a waterskin, then go back to open the second door in the previous room. There's a room with a fountain with a gilt wood and silver inlay, filled with brown water. I try to heal another wound by drinking from fountain, but an elf emerges from it, spilling some water on the ground in the process.

The elf fails to wound me; I opt to gulp water quickly and heal my last wound, then talk persuasively to him (+1 kind words.) I finish the next turn with a +4 persuasive argument and +1 offer of friendship, gaining an elf ally.

He's wearing leather armor, which reminds me to go back and get +2 leather armor for myself from that goblin I killed. We then head east, then south down long tunnel to the Southwest corner. The Type 5 room at the end of thsi tunnel is sealed with a +2 stone door with +4 spikes and a +1 lock. I pick the lock easily and enter room: nothing but a +2 yellow bag made of webbing with green and blue spike pattern on it.

When I open the bag, it triggers a light distraction that grows suddenly brighter, but I am not confused by such trickery. I find a +2 sword which I give to elf. I check the south door for traps: an airy form of a purple claw reaches out of keyhole and projects a spotlight to mark me as a target, but I am able to dart out of the way. I then disarm trap with two rolls.

Before I open the door, I go back to the stone door with spikes and break off one of the +4 spikes to use as a weapon. Turns out to be wasted effort, because the south door leads to an empty room.

I stopped here, since this playtest ran over 2 hours and I already learned quite a bit. First: this dungeon seems too boring, too many empty rooms. When I do have an encounter, there's way too much detail. Useless detail. I mean, a yellow bag made of webbing with green and blue spike pattern on it? Come on! I was having trouble coming up with descriptions from the adjectives these rolls were slinging at me.

I've started playtesting v1.2. Only finished one encounter, but it was much more violent and I had to escape. I'll see what happens with a little more play.

[Callan S.]

Hiya,

I really get that strange wonderment/peril mix from your actual play. It's kind of a 'wow, what a wonderful and strange world - yet if I just glut on that feeling and don't keep moving, it'll eat my face off!'

How much will death actually come into it? In your accounts so far you've stopped at the point where you could predict death was most likely going to happen. Perhaps this should be part of the design, where you play until the 'heat' from probable death being just around the corner is too much and you bow out?

On the rooms, it is a let down to dare and then get nothing. Rant: Alot of designs rely on always putting treasure in the room...which pretty much destroys the idea of it being a dare in the first place, as there is certainly a payoff.

I'd suggest there being a fixed resource reward that you get for every room delved into, regardless of what turns out to be in each room. And make that reward one that doesn't do anything for the player now, only latter. That way it doesn't aid the player when he enters the room and thus doesn't dumb down the risk factor of entering the room.

Also, could you have some sort of symbology on each door, generated by your random system? This in turn is used when interpreting any of the rooms contents. That way the door actually gives some sort of clue as to the contents and makes the dare of entering it quite alot more varied.

[DevP]

Are there any possible mechanics by which, as you continually get to empty rooms or similar results, the chance of SOMETHING happening goes up, even (or especially) if that something is possibly bad?

[talysman]

Are there any possible mechanics by which, as you continually get to empty rooms or similar results, the chance of SOMETHING happening goes up, even (or especially) if that something is possibly bad?

What is in a room or at a tunnel obstacle/wandering hazard location is determined by the Discovery process. Discovery is determined using the same dice you would roll for a conflict (in fact, both v1.1 and v1.2 allow Discovery simultaneous with Conflict, and a Discovery roll that describes a creature or hazard encounter immediately gets reinterpretted as a Conflict roll.)

So, as long as Discovery in general is working properly, the more dice you are rolling for Conflicts or Discovery, the greater the chance of finding stuff. Dice for Discovery come from:

• your dice, which is equal to your Strength plus anything that gives a bonus on searching.
• Opposition Dice, which is equal to the Difficulty level of the dungeon (one-half Dungeon Level + 5) plus bonuses for mental wounds.

Your Strength goes up as you gain levels; Level Difficulty increases as you go deeper into the dungeon.

Now, what you're suggesting is adding a number of dice equal to some tracking number which increases every time you find an empty room. That's a possibility; I'll consider that and may test it as an alternative. The latest version of the Discovery rules are actually generating lots of encounters, so I might not need it, unless it helps solve another problem that has arisen (1.2 creatures seem to be too strong; Playtest Three seems really hard.)

I really get that strange wonderment/peril mix from your actual play. It's kind of a 'wow, what a wonderful and strange world - yet if I just glut on that feeling and don't keep moving, it'll eat my face off!'

How much will death actually come into it? In your accounts so far you've stopped at the point where you could predict death was most likely going to happen. Perhaps this should be part of the design, where you play until the 'heat' from probable death being just around the corner is too much and you bow out?

It's potentially pretty deadly right now, especially with the 1.2 rules. I think the basic rules are correct now, they just need tweaking; in Playtest Three, that first room in the Northeast Corner had a guard right outside the door wearing magic armor that cast Move Light, which I interpretted as a Dazzle effect. He did a lot of damage quickly and called for help and was joined by another goblin and a trained jackal. I ran, doubledback, and used a lot of stealth to try to take out the guards. It's tough!

On the rooms, it is a let down to dare and then get nothing. Rant: Alot of designs rely on always putting treasure in the room...which pretty much destroys the idea of it being a dare in the first place, as there is certainly a payoff.

I'd suggest there being a fixed resource reward that you get for every room delved into, regardless of what turns out to be in each room. And make that reward one that doesn't do anything for the player now, only latter. That way it doesn't aid the player when he enters the room and thus doesn't dumb down the risk factor of entering the room.

There's no fixed monetary reward; in fact, all treasure, other than weapons, armor and arcane items the creatures are using against you, is handled by "What You Seek Is What You Get" and is completely random. However, the more things in the room that you can search, the more chances you have for treasure. The big problem was Discovery not providing enough results in v1.1. It seems to be much better in v1.2; in fact, I may tweak the Difficulty number to tone it down a bit.

There's the non-monetary reward of experience, which right now is handled this way: every time you survive an encounter, no matter how you do it (including running away,) you get an experience point. You can spend experience points to get dice for an experience roll, which determines whether you gain a skill or increase your Strength.

Also, could you have some sort of symbology on each door, generated by your random system? This in turn is used when interpreting any of the rooms contents. That way the door actually gives some sort of clue as to the contents and makes the dare of entering it quite alot more varied.

This is actually a really good idea, and potentially easy to impliment. Arcane items have descriptors, usually color and liquid quality or color and visual motif. Each descriptor is linked secretly to an arcane words, either essence (fire, water, earth, air, spirit and various substances) or effect (move, hold,change, and other verbs.) You don't know which is linked to which until you test the item.

My intention is to use the same thing with creatures. You may find a modified version of one of the standard beasts for this level (that's what the physical changes descriptors list is for); that creature may have an arcane power. Doors can be arcane, too, essentially using a magical trap against you. So doors already have symbols on them that potentially mean something, which can be deciphered by comparing to other symbols or arcane items.

Also, secret doors and doors in Type 6 rooms potentially lead to Chambers, a new feature I've added. A Chamber has a specific theme and function, like a smithy, a wizard's lab, or a temple. It always has things appropriate to its function. Odds for finding a Chamber are always 1 in 6, which is pretty good. You just have to find the appropriate kind of door.

As I said above, I think I only need to tweak v1.2 to get the proper baseline effect. Then, I can consider adding extra features, like door symbology. I already have a list of features I will be adding to make the final commercial version, like the races and classes, descriptions of stock denizens and beasts, and details on the arcane essences and effects.

Thanks for the very good suggestions, guys.