[Realm] Tree based or List based powers?

[sayter]

Greetings. It has been quite some time since I posted here, as things have been mighty busy. But, Realm is on a roll again so here I is!

Currently I am trying to strike a definitive balance and uniqueness between the two character types in the game (Dreamers or Heroic Mortals)

Dreamers are fully realised in terms of their power strucutre. They can manifest their will and desires into reality at a whim provided they possess the adequate Strata to accomplish the feat. There are nine Dream Strata, each representing a particular facet of reality/unreality: Life, Light, Phantasm, Spirit, Body, Mind, Force, Form, Decay. Characters can possess more than one Strata, and increase their levels in these skills via expenditure of XP.

Mortal heroes are, obviously, a little less grandiose in terms of what they can accomplish. However, they must be able to stand toe to toe with such beings...this is a fantasy game after all and epic battles are unavoidable sooner or later. Mortal Heroes can select the powers they learn, which are linked to specific attributes. They gain them via XP as well .

My issue is this: Dreamers are extremely freeform, akin to Mage (of White Wolf fame). Mortal Heroes need the same kind of flexibility, or they will not suit the system i have in place which is also freeform (point based creation, set in various eras of life, from birth to adulthood). I am stuck between Tree Based or List Based powers.

Tree Based powers would require them to buy a particular "tree", and gradually increase their abilities within it. For instance, God Strength could lead to either Stalwart Defense or Gargantuan Feat at level 2, which in turn lead to other abilities. This method would make a character specialised, in a way, but still allow each to be unique from others. If a player desired, they could buy other trees too but at the cost of splitting XP between 2 trees.

List Based I actually like a little less. This method would allow them to pick numerous powers from a list. These would be divided by attribute, meaning that they would be best to pick one that suits their higehr stat scores or otherwise be doomed to eternally crappy rolls. They would have a lot more choice, but at the cost of less overall power.

What experiences with these system variations have you had ? What sort of strengths do each provide over the other that I may not be seeing? I want this choice to be the right one the first time along, and any info is helpful. If it can be related to my points above, even better :)

[jeremycoatney]

...I might be misunderstanding here, but I don't think either system in fact allows for a great deal of flexibility. They are kind of inherently inflexible, you have lists of powers that players can choose to buy. The only real difference I'm seeing here is that Tree Based powers are more restrictive; you have to buy into a particular tree to get certain powers and you can only buy powers you have met the prerequisites for.
     In my particular experience, when it comes to fixed form instead of free form, I usually like systems where you can just buy the powers you want from lists of powers and not have to worry about the weird tree systems people come up with. Mostly this is because I think that sometimes the designers do not have a good perspective on where certain powers should go on the tree.
     In this case, I think this reservation is a bad example though, because, to be fair I've never read any of your work and don't know how you WOULD assemble the trees. Still I like to be able to get abilities without worrying about getting some list of prerequisite powers first. That's just me, and I must admit if properly handled the tree system can still be enjoyable to use.

[Ken]

Would you use the same powers for Dreamers and Mortals; would there be powers based on Dream Strata and on Attributes, or Strata powers that each have a link to an attribute for mortals? I like the play between potency (Dreamers) and versatility (Mortals).

Personally, I find trees rather restrictive, like you said. There is nothing worse than coming up with a concept for a game and then finding out the powers you want are not immediately available. Also, trees make players jump through hoops which may make the character different from the original concept. On the other hand, some people call this growth and actually like starting weak and building up power; it is certainly a matter of taste (and design).

Lists allow for more custom characters, and is the way I would go out of the two choices you listed. To suggest growth you could seperate each list into degrees of effect (like minor, moderate, major, and honorary GM), making weak powers cheap and more potent abilities expensive. This might allow for characters with potent abilities right off the bat but without all of the little powers that they might develope on the way.

Spit-balling here (and this may very well be what you were talking about earlier):

Maybe each Strata has a list of powers whose potency is determined by the Strata Score, and the value of an attribute (each power would be linked to the attribute that most fits its effect). Dreamers have to have points in a Strata to buy the powers. Mortals don't have to have any Strata score, and can choose any power off any list, though they only get to use the value of the linked attribute (which would make its effects weaker).

I hope this has helped in some way. You obviously have some mechanical system that this all has to fit into; and without knowing that its kind of hard to offer advise that fits your concept.

Anyway, I like the idea; good luck and I look forward to hearing more about it.

Best

Ken

[sayter]

Yes, Strata and Mortal pwoers are both tied to attributes. Each strata corresponds to an attrib, and therefore all rolls of said ability rely on Attrib + Strata + Sway(a part of the mechanic i didnt mention as part of my post in detail, because its worthy of  a post all its own. essentially its a moral meter that affects both the dreamer and how their powers manifest)Good or Evil sway effects good and evil powers, respectively.)

The game mechanics are pretty much concrete, until i get round 1 of playtesting done.

You both make interesting points, and both seem to be in the List based camp. Such style has worked well in D&D, Rifts, and dozens of other games. Tree based is one I have only really seen successful in Exalted, but there the abilities are Skill based rather than attribute based. My main idea here was just to get as much feedback as possible to make a good ol educated decision :)

[jeremycoatney]

     Tree based systems can work if you really want to put in the time and energy to make sure you do the job right. I'm just biased because, like you said, very few systems have pulled it off very well to date. On these grounds, perhaps you would include a little more information? Some things I think would make it easier to discuss are:
     1. A list of roots or bases to the trees.
     2. Some examples of beginning branches and powers.
     3. A little more information on Sway, not too much information, just a sort of framework of what it is and what it does.

     You do have the example of God Strength as a potential base, and the branches of Stalwart Defense or Gargantuan Feat, this is good for basic examples, but without more information about, for instance, how many trees there are going to be ultimately, it is hard to say more about whether it seems like a good idea to keep with the tree mechanics.
     Also, you mentioned paying XP to buy other trees and abilities, do you plan on using the White Wolf system of slowly gaining XP over time and then spending it on advancing your character?

[sayter]

    1. A list of roots or bases to the trees.
     2. Some examples of beginning branches and powers.
     3. A little more information on Sway, not too much information, just a sort of framework of what it is and what it does.
4.do you plan on using the White Wolf system of slowly gaining XP over time and then spending it on advancing your character?


1 & 2. I have not yet determined what all the trees would be, save for that there would be at least 1 tree per attribute. I imagine that each tree would contain between 4 to 12 powers depending on the nature of the tree.

3: Sway works like this (backstory warning!) :

An ancient entity holds reality in its grip. It feeds on the dreams, emotions and life essence of the world. Its influence taints all things gradually by default. However, in numerous places on the world there are locations called Fayges. They act like an antenna and a drain. They absorb dream energy and pass it through the Dreamscape to this ancient entity to feed upon. In return, they broadcast the overlying moral/emotional aspect of the energy they feed it into their area of influence. This energy is dependant on those living near the fayge. This means that a nation of miserable people would create a ton of negative energy...which in turn result in that energy being turned into nasty effects and shifting reality to suit it within the fayges radius of effect.
    Sway is, essentially, the "alignment" system of my world. It affects most actions, in some form or another. Rather than have concrete levels like "Principled, Abberant, Diabolic" and so forth, it is a sliding scale upon which characters can shift based on their actions. Their sway is used to supplement their powers or detract from them. Say for instance, a character is evil by act and nature and has a Sway of -2. This is -2 Negative(evil) , and will subtract 2 from any positive actions he attempts to perform. Evil acts treat it as a +2. The further along the path a character goes, the more potent they become at a particular form of action and less efficient at the opposite end.
    Whenever they do something that is a moral act, and it affects them or anyone else in some manner, the character can undergo a sway shift. The lower/higher they go in Sway, the more difficult it becomes to reach the next plateau. A character with +3 sway has a far harder time reaching Sway +4 than he did going from +2 to +3. Thus, characters use their moral and ethical choices to their advantage, but must always be mindful of a change since it is quite capable of seriously affecting their performance.
    One more thing to note: Sway is "contagious" in a way. Fayges can be claimed by Dreamers, and these fayges then transmit the sway of the dreamer, versus the sway inherent to the region. Fayges all connect to one another, and if a claimed fayge is near an unclaimed one it will broadcast its sway to said location. Thus , a powerful Dreamer has the ability to change the face of reality across a broad area just by his possession of the fayge. Mortals and Chimera(living nightmares) can also claim fayges for themselves. Thus, dictators, demons and real decent people can also affect the reality in which they live.

Does that sum it up sufficiently?

4: Characters will be able to advance via a whiet wolf method, as you put it. XP is gained via play, roleplaying, and brilliant ideas and the like.

[dindenver]

Hi!
  Just as a not of clarification. D&D Feats are tree based. They are presented as a list, but because of the pre-reqs, it becomes a tree.
  Well, I think there are ups and downs to each and you need to match those to your design goals:
Tree:
Ups: Predictable growth, apprciable gain in power through advancement. And you as a designer can establish themes
Downs: A finite number of character types exist depending on how many trees players are allowed. Game balance issues of creating a progression that gets more powerful as you climb the tree, but not more powerful thatn dreamers or other trees/branches. If you are not careful, all of the mortal will always have the same tree because the mechanics promote on over the other. Expansion may prove difficult if you decide to expand the system after publishing

List:
Ups: Character combinations are flexible, matbe even more flexible than you can imagine. Game balance is less of an issue as the powers can be a little out of synch without throwing off a whle tree. Easy to expand the system, just add a few more powers.
Downs: Unpredictable power comboes. Unpredictable power growth. Less controll over theme.
  So, which of these isues are a real concern and which are trivial to you?

[sayter]

Going from the feedback thus far, I think lists maybe the best route.

Trees seem liek a ehadache for balance purposes, and it is easy to screw up the flavour of such a tree through a single inconsitency. Then you end up with Exalted 1st edition style characters....why pick Tree X, when i get a +1 higher bonus in Tree Y.

While lists present their own problems, I think that they would be far easier to regulate overall. Assignign a cap, or stating that certain pwoers are not stackable should, if careful, ensure fairness across the board.

[sean2099]

Hi!
  Just as a not of clarification. D&D Feats are tree based. They are presented as a list, but because of the pre-reqs, it becomes a tree.
  Well, I think there are ups and downs to each and you need to match those to your design goals:
Tree:
Ups: Predictable growth, apprciable gain in power through advancement. And you as a designer can establish themes
Downs: A finite number of character types exist depending on how many trees players are allowed. Game balance issues of creating a progression that gets more powerful as you climb the tree, but not more powerful thatn dreamers or other trees/branches. If you are not careful, all of the mortal will always have the same tree because the mechanics promote on over the other. Expansion may prove difficult if you decide to expand the system after publishing

List:
Ups: Character combinations are flexible, matbe even more flexible than you can imagine. Game balance is less of an issue as the powers can be a little out of synch without throwing off a whle tree. Easy to expand the system, just add a few more powers.
Downs: Unpredictable power comboes. Unpredictable power growth. Less controll over theme.
  So, which of these isues are a real concern and which are trivial to you?

Hi all,

I wanted to chime in.  Interesting question.  I thought I was using lists initially but I suppose I am using trees now. (I am using power lists where each power group is listed..creation, destruction, etc. and there are 10 levels to each power.  I suppose they are trees now because you have to learn power level 1 before power level 2 and so on.

Anyway...

In my little project, I went with tree lists via "power lists."  I listed several groups of powers with each group having a list.  Without getting into too many mechanics, you gain enough glory (experience) and spend to climb up the list(s).  There are not any branches in any one particular list (linear climbing) but some lists affected others.  e.g. I have a power list called spatial which controls transportation and extends the range of all other powers. 

I have to agree that trees are difficult to set but (I don't know if this will work) I tried to cut out extra branches by not having powers overlapping each other.  I also eliminated most die rolls except for countering.  I have a download on my website if you want to tear the "powers" section apart.

I am not saying I made a perfect "tree" or "list" but if you are interested, PM me and I can give more details.

Sean

[Daemonworks]

Finally decided to come out of lurk mode, and post on this, because this pertains directly to a game mechanics concept that I've been toying with for awhile...

One thing that occurs to me, is that you seem to be overlooking the fact that it's possible to combine the two in some ways.

The old werewolf system from whitewolf, for example, is basicly a list system with tree elements. The powers are grouped into lists. Most of the lists a given PC has are very small, and generally follow a specific theme within that list. However, there is a definate sense of progression, as the lists are subdivided into five or six ranks, and the individual character has to earn the right to select higher end powers.  You end up with the tree-like sense of theme and progression, but with abit more flexability as to the details of how it plays out.

Other mixes and balances between the two ends are possible. I'm working on an idea that I think may be a very good balance betwen the two for a project of my own, but it's nowhere near ready to be shared as of yet.