[TSoY] - Exalted, with Mixed Results

[DaGreatJL]

In regards to competing for Key XP, check out this thread over here:http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=19812.0. It talks a lot about teamwork and cooperation in hitting Keys.

[Belinda K.]

I'm not sure I understand.  "It wasn't that she couldn't up with different ways to apply the keys, but rather that they 'rewarded' you for playing a character one way, as opposed to 'any way you liked'."  She chose her keys herself, right?

I think few of the game's problems were due to the 'culture shock'  of TSoY for S (she doesn't perceive alignment in D&D as a roleplaying straitjacket, but views Keys as limited, primarily due to the way the game forces the player to go out and do stuff to earn their XP. It's competitive and she's not into that, she said. But as I said, it's only been the one session, and this one was a bit of a strain as we tried to convert characters, play a new system and work out the kinks. I'll see how it goes after the next session.

With regard to the problem of 'BDTP initiative', it looks like – according to Rafial – that you negotiate your initiative when the scene comes up. So you do lots of back-and-forth between the players to see if everyone is prepared to go the full way with their intentions, and then start things when everyone has a clear and firm idea of what they really want? I'll keep that in mind if this comes up next session.

Another way to do it would be sequential conflicts.

Which is also a good point to keep in mind. I think I'll just keep the dice away and then see what happens if someone calls for BDTP again. The system is there if you need it but not if you don't want it

Her character doesn't have to keep pinging her keys if she doesn't want to take her there, and I definitely think that's okay. (Does TSOY have much in the way of needing characters to "keep up" with each other, in terms of advancement?)

The problem was if S just 'plays her character' and doesn't really care about key pinging, the player (who is into XP accumulation and building up a character's stats and things) is worried that the other players will earn more XP than her because they don't have a problem with key pinging themselves. (Despite what S said about not being competitive herself or perhaps it's because she doesn't want to be forced to be competitive?) Your ideas for my problems sound quite good – I don't know how they'll go down, but they're determinately worth bringing up if there are more XP problems at the end of session #2 (it's a monthly game).

Thanks for everyone who responded. I'll ask the group how they're going for keys and if they think they need more to model their character properly.

[DaGreatJL]

Forgive me if I'm shooting off the mark, but it seems like S is seeing "competition" when what is really happening is "player initiative". There is nothing that says in TSoY that players are in competition with each other for XPs. Nothing that says everyone can't work together to earn it, that they can't help each other, or that doing so will impair their own ability to earn XP in any way at all. All it says it that players define what earns them XP. That's it. It assumes that you will then go out of your way to make those things happen. But not competitively, cooperatively.

[Miedvied]

S's main complaint was that the system 'got in the way of the roleplaying'. Her background was D&D, which doesn't have rules for reinforcing characterisation, like TSoY's Keys and Pool refreshes. Her problem was she would be going around doing stuff in TSoY that the system would reward (via Keys/Pool refreshes), but it may not have been stuff that her character would have done if those in-system reinforcements weren't there. For example, S had Key of the Lost Child and a lot of her dialogue was about saying: "In my homeland, we have a different custom..." but if she only a flat XP award at the end of the session, she wouldn't have been saying that so often. Whereas B and K were doing a bit more 'in character stuff' due to the key system, and N was setting up scenes tactically so he could bring home the bacon.

And S was saying that PCs would simply be running around refreshing their pools and doing Key stuff, rewarded by the system, whereas if those in-system benefits weren't there, they would be 'less restricted' to play their characters. I pointed out that this was how the system worked, and B intiatied an action to save a child, where as in vanilla Exalted, she would have just been going with the flow, her usual RP mode. I guess I'll see in another session or so if these mechanics become invisible or continue to impair S's realisation of how her character would act.

S also didn't like BDTP - in that first encounter, she would have preferred a long IC dialogue with the DB, and then maybe a quick roll or GM Fiat to decide the option. The entire round by round mode 'combat system' mode didn't sit well for her. I said it was up to her whether she initiated it or not.

S's complaints are irrelevant to the game. Specifically, she is not criticizing the game; she is criticizing her understanding of it. Character concept / goals / Keys are supposed to reinforce one another. If one wants a combat monster, for example, one does not take a Pacifist sort of Key. By the same token, it gives one a reward for pursuing their own character. Granted, this works even better when the character's overall themes are worked directly into the overarching plot/game themes, but that's beside the point. Complaining about the Keys for "restricting" her seems to me like someone in DnD playing a Wizard and complaining that their combat skills are being "restricted".

Then again, perhaps I'm misunderstanding the full extent of her complaints. I'd generally lean towards the more sympathetic interpretation, if not for her second complaint. BDTP, like the Keys, is only brought down /when she chooses to/. The whole point is that for non-important scenes, where the blow-by-blow is not dramatic and warranted, to stay away from it. She called it down (at the behest of the other players, as I understand it) and then complained that it got in the way. It seems to me that it was unwarranted at the time (specifically because /she/ didn't want it, the other players did) and so of course got in the way. This second instance of her games mechanics actions (taking a certain Key, initiating BDTP) contradicting her desires is primarily what's bugging her. As such, the complaint isn't relevant to the game itself, but with her utilization of the rules.

It seems to me that the problem is essentially nonexistent. She's new, and bound not to slip comfortably into all of the rules. I, for instance, thought AoO in DnD were the most cumbersome, stupid thing ever until I got used to them. The only essential thing is to make sure that she does come to better grips with the rules, before she decides that her criticisms of them actually lie with the system rather than her understanding of the system, and decides to write off the game as a wash.

[Miedvied]

I should probably add, also, that regarding her comment:

It wasn't that she couldn't up with different ways to apply the keys, but rather that they 'rewarded' you for playing a character one way, as opposed to 'any way you liked'.

It probably pays to remind her of the fact that you could trade in Keys to grab new ones on the fly. One is, in fact, rewarded for not being stuck in a straight-jacket, considering there's a net profit in XP. I'm gonna resume reading the thread now, as I realize a half-dozen people already probably pointed this out.

[Miedvied]

I really wish I could edit previous posts. It'd let me append after-thoughts into one long post, instead of stacking up on myself like this. Anyway, Belinda, a good example for S to peruse regarding Key use:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=19812.0

It covers harmony of Key and character concept, a party unified by their keys clicking off one another to create personality dynamic, picking up keys on the fly to expand character concept, et al. I mean, pretty much all the essential components to making TSoY work for, rather than against, you. And since it's all Actual Play, it's all easy to grok.

[Callan S.]

During a follow-up chat with S, she also mentioned the introduced competitiveness that she thought the Key system would bring that she didn't like. I think it is just how she's used to playing games, and that's a different approach for her. It wasn't that she couldn't up with different ways to apply the keys, but rather that they 'rewarded' you for playing a character one way, as opposed to 'any way you liked'. And that goal-based stuff and XP accumulation is a big thing about gaming for her - she wants to earn XP, rather than just simply wanting to play the character anyway she liked and occaisionally ping keys. So she'll play to ping her keys, do it well, and not feel good about it because she's 'being competitive' and 'limiting her roleplaying to key pinging'.

Could you ask her if she feels she has to conform to some other players (the GM's?) idea of what the key is. Take alignment for example in D&D...in one game one player could choose the 'good' alignment and then go and slit the throats of kobold babies. That player is making his statement of what 'good' is (for that character). While in another game of D&D, a different player will be looking at the alignment of 'good' and how he has to conform to what the GM thinks 'good' is.

The former is the player expressing themselves. The latter is the player limiting themselves to second guessing how another person/the GM would express it.

I'm not too familiar with TSOY. Can the GM veto the use of a key, if he thinks the stated characters actions don't fall under that key? If the rules don't let the GM veto, you might like to stress this point with the player. That they can express their character through the key in whatever way they wish and you wont cut them off.

[Miedvied]

The former is the player expressing themselves. The latter is the player limiting themselves to second guessing how another person/the GM would express it.
I'm not too familiar with TSOY. Can the GM veto the use of a key, if he thinks the stated characters actions don't fall under that key? If the rules don't let the GM veto, you might like to stress this point with the player. That they can express their character through the key in whatever way they wish and you wont cut them off.

Nope, GM has no such veto. There's a list of general behaviors that trigger a key, which gives you an XP payout. You don't ever actually have to conform to your key in any fashion, and in my opinion, the actions that trigger pay-off usually aren't ambiguous enough to come up as issues for interpretation. Either way, you act how you want to act - only question is whether or not you get XP. (And for that matter, you can take mutually contradictory keys and always get XP in certain situations, no matter which way you go).