[TSOY] weapons and armor, applied to magic

[xjermx]

A player posed the following question to me:
"Would it be posible to have a weapon/aparatus that assists in magic? Perhaps a sort of amplifier?
I was thinking of a sort of magical lock, something that allows the caster to concentrate more on making the effect work and less on remembering the word. In other words, a sort of extra defense to make sure words aren't stolen from the caster.
On the flip side, there's always the possibility of an item (i'd go with a key for irony) that would enhance the ability of the caster to take words from people. Just a thought."

My initial response was:  This is not D&D, there are no +1 magic swords.  Trying to make it so that Zu cannot be stolen from you goes against the premise behind that magic system anyway, and goofs it up.

However, it does raise, I think, a valid question.

I offered this:
"You could have an item that would increase harm from your magic in a combat situation by +1, or that would decrease your harm taken from magic in a combat situation by 1.
Or you could have an item that would increase harm from your magic when used to attempt to steal a word by +2, or the same in reverse.  Note that these apply only to harm done in BDtP."

I came up with this, trying to adapt to the info on Armor and Weapons in the text.

So my question is twofold:
1) would you allow "weapons and armor" that can influence magic?

2) assuming "yes", have I made a close approxomation to the weapons and armor in the text, with my offering above?

[shadowcourt]

My answer to both questions is "Yes."

Absolutely, I can conceive of, say, a wand or amulet or some other device which adds +1 harm to a use of the Destruction ability, for instance. There's no reason not to build it with the Secret of Imbuement, just like anything else. In fact, you could apply any of the Imbuement options to it, so it could be a wand designed to kill the Magistrate of Southern Maldor, which deals +3 harm to him when using the Destruction ability, and no special bonus to anyone else.

Remember, similarly, that any situation where you get into BDTP allows you to deal harm, so a hypnotic locket which did +3 harm when Enthrallment was used to conquer someone's mind is just as valid. Though, again, it presupposes getting into BDTP over a use of Enthrallment, which might not happen. If you're Enthralling this character as a means of knocking a named StoryGuide character out of the game completely, though, it might be useful indeed.

Similarly, an item which provides "armor" against magical attacks is just as valid, though keep in mind that a standard -1 imbued defensive item might be pretty all purpose-- unless someone is using a really wild Secret, such as "Secret of Internal Damage" or something like that, I'd allow a character's normal -1 defense to work against Destruction magics. But then again, maybe that's just me; another StoryGuide might say the unusual nature of the magics circumvents those conventional defenses. Anyone?

Your sample items for dealing with Zu theft are pretty inspired, I think. That's likely how I would write them, as well.

Anyone else care to comment?

[colin roald]

I offered this:
"You could have an item that would increase harm from your magic in a combat situation by +1, or that would decrease your harm taken from magic in a combat situation by 1.
Or you could have an item that would increase harm from your magic when used to attempt to steal a word by +2, or the same in reverse.  Note that these apply only to harm done in BDtP."

So the rules are arguable, but here's my interpretation.  The Revised rules say:

When using a weapon, if your character is successful in an action, you can add the weapon's rating to your success level. If you are unsuccessful, the weapon does nothing. Your success level cannot go above Ultimate (6) because of a weapon. Armor subtracts from the success level of actions taken against you. Armor cannot lower a success level past Marginal (1).

Nothing in there specifies BDTP, or harm.  What I think it says is, weapons are things that
(1) add a modifer to your Success Level
(2) while using a particular skill
(3) in a particular situation. 
Armours likewise subtract their rating from your opponents' success levels.  It's very clear that weapons aren't limited to things that do physical damage. so as far as I can tell it is totally within the letter and spirit of the rules to specify an armour that subtracts 2 from your opponent's success levels when they're using their Zu ability to try to steal a Zu syllable from you.  (I pick the -2 rating because it seems that "trying to steal Zu" is an uncommon but not unique situation, but I would entertain the argument that it should only be -1 because that's the main use of the Zu ability in practice.)  This armour item could be an amulet, or an enchanted feather, or somethng of the sort.

You would, of course, have to spend an advance on the Imbuement secret to buy the item.


shadowcourt, I am not sure what you mean by "standard -1 imbued defensive item".   Even the most generic piece of armour, I would never allow to situations broader than "physical combat", ie, any Ability representing a fighting style.  That's already broader than I'd like for most items, and I could easily alternately go with the idea that armour that's good against Swordfighting doesn't work vs Pistols, and vice versa.  Destruction magic is definitely different enough that I would not allow a +1 armour against physical combat to affect it, never mind attempts at theft of Zu.

Also, I'd say that "using Enthrallment to conquer someone's mind" is pretty much by definition every use of Enthrallment, so I wouldn't allow more than a +1 modifier for a weapon for that situation.

[shadowcourt]

colin,

Some of the confusion here may be about the fact that I'm still a hanger-oner from TSOY's first version, so I'm fumbling to make terminology jumps sometimes that I'm not fully qualified to make. I'm a latecomer to the TSOY phenomenon, and while I love it to pieces, I'm still building towards the 2nd edition jump for financial reasons and stick-in-the-mudness, etc etc.. I haven't quite fallen in love with Fudge Dice yet.

As such, the distinctions between "harm" and damage are a little opaque to me. As the Success Levels from the old system largely translated into the damage done, I might've been explaining myself badly. What I meant to say was that a "magical weapon" could just as easily increase the Success Level by +1 for the use of an ability like Destruction or Zu as it could any other ability, like Dueling or Aim, by my understanding. Or indeed any ability, such as a really bad-ass cookbook that increased your Cooking damage by +1.

And yes, by a "standard -1 imbued defensive item" I meant something like in the examples in the TSOY rulebook, such as an item of armor which applied to most sources of physical combat. Even with that understanding, it may be, as you suggest, that I've been too generous in my understanding of how the +1/-1 imbuing level should work. I'd interpreteted that a -1 item might work against many sources of physical damage, so that knives, swords, axes, spears, guns, clubs, tra la la would all be fair game, but it wouldn't work against, say, flames, Destruction magics, and certainly not at all against more obscure attacks like poison or such. And naturally, as we've predicated this by saying "physical damage", Zu theft and mind control and lord knows what else are completely out of the question.

But your interpretation, "great for swordfights, useless against guns" might be more accurate to what Clinton was envisioning. I guess I'd always tried to extrapolate from that "mace which does +2 damage against 'hard' armors like plate or chain" (TSOY, 1st ed, p. 47) to consider the armor you were describing as a -2 defensive item, not -1. But I might be really way off base.

The confusion about the Enthrallment example might just be that I didn't clarify I was offering an alternate example on the previous situation with the Magistrate of Southern Maldor. A device which worked against him, and ONLY him, should be a +3 weapon, as I understand it. I was just trying to show an "alternative" weapon in this magic situation, and move away from the "it has to wound/burn/blow to bits" classic examples, as TSOY allows for a wide perception of what "damage" is. In this case, an item crafted to Enthrall a single specific person does +3 damage during BDTP.

Additionally, xjermx, my understanding of the Secret of Speciality means that a player could craft a Secret which granted a bonus die on the use of a specific Three-Corner Ability or other magical Ability in a specific situation (say, the use of the Creation ability to make fire, or the use of Zu against goblins, or what have you). That might be to your player's liking, but remember it should apply to only one of the magical Abilities, and not be a blanket bonus die for all of them. If the player wanted, this could just as easily be an item under the Secret of Imbuement, but that's sort of a "season to taste" thing; there's no reason it has to be anything other than his natural ability, save for player proclivities.

Sorry about the miscommunication here. End of academic year exhaustion must have my head spun.

[colin roald]

Shadowcourt -- it sounds like we're pretty much on the same page, then.  I think Clinton has said he deliberately didn't specify exactly how broad a category of conflcts a given weapon or armour could affect, so it's pretty much up to your house interpretation.

You can read the Revised rules on the web, if you want:  http://zork.net/~nick/loyhargil/tsoy2/book1--rulebook.html
All decently formatted in HTML.