Defending against Sorcery

[Rattlehead]

It's not like Stahl has a central leader or something.

Actually, Stahl has a High King, with most of the other rulers in Stahl loyal to him. A few outlying holdings are more or less independent, and they're too far  away, not worth it, etc. So they don't do anything about it. If Stahl was threatened though, I'm sure they'd close ranks pretty quickly.

Concerning Uglub, he may not want to get Stahl's attention too soon. Might be like kicking a hornet's nest. Better to take them by treachery and cunning. Those Stalnish are some tough mothers. When roused, no doubt a force to be reckoned with.

Also, the limit on the number of targets of a spell is not an issue to a clever sorcerer. See the example spell posted by Jake, the one where a sorcerer decimates an army with piles of straw....

Brandon

[Christopher Kubasik]

Hi Jake,

Um, would you mind chiming in on this one.  Right about now I am really curious about your take on this.

Thanks,
Christopher

[Jake Norwood]

On my take on what? There are a few bits and pieces here. If you mean my take on how Gelure is planning on taking the world with its socerery...I don't have a definitive answer. I've never been a big fan of metaplot (I think it removes the PC's protagonism to a large degree) except where it IS the point (eg Pendragon, Star Wars). Weyrth has no real planned metaplot. I created a world on the verge of explosion, and figured I'd leave it at that.

If that doesn't corner your question just re-specify and I'll be happy to address whatever.

Jake

[Christopher Kubasik]

Hi Jake,

Sorry I wasn't clear.

Defending against sorcery.  Any suggestions?

Can three sorcerers, backed by a government, take over the world?

The posters above seem to think so.  No one has as yet offered a concrete solution that everyone else accepts.  Do you have anything to offer on the matter of defending against sorcery?  Do any of the proffered suggestions above make more sense to you than others.

Metaplot elements are not a concern.  I'm not asking about specific nations or storylines.  Just the bare bones rules: Is the magic of sorcerers in the context of the game world powerful enough to offer unstopable victory as described above.

Thanks,
Christopher

[Jake Norwood]

Metaplot elements are not a concern. I'm not asking about specific nations or storylines. Just the bare bones rules: Is the magic of sorcerers in the context of the game world powerful enough to offer unstopable victory as described above.

Well, actually, yeah...I think it is. Now, theoretically 3 non-sorcerers could take over the world (what was Hitler?), but sorcery gives an incredible edge. Yeah, yeah, we made TROS magic just about unstoppable...yeah, yeah...but no apologies. So what balances are in effect? What can be done to stop this infernal tide?

First off, anyone trying to take over the world is greedy by definition. How long do 3 such people get along? How long before they destroy each other in attempt to become "alpha male?"

Second, the best (and only?) protection against a sorcerer is another sorcerer. Sure, Gelure has more than everyone else (except maybe Angharad), but there are going to be lots of folks with other private interests getting in the way. Maybe there's a powerful Stahlnish Wizard that doesn't want to be swallowed up into Gelure...maybe he likes the fact that no one believes that he has power, and that makes him safe and happy. Maybe he's a hero...how cool of a campaign would 3 wizard PC's intent on preventing Uglub's conquest be? I'd play!

The third protection is the direction of the GM and the campaign itself. I don't use that much magic in most of my campaigns, except for occassional forays into the world of the Siehe. I did run a "Gelure takes Farrenshire" game once, but we had a PC wizard, which changes things a lot. I wouldn't reccomend putting non-Gifted against the might and wrath of a sorcerer-backed Gelure.

Other stuff that just occured to me includes issues like the Inquisition. What is it that they're doing, what rescource do they have, that has wizards running scared? Faith? Miracles? Maybe the Inquisition is really just a cover for a single powerful sorcerer (the Xanarth, Perhaps? One of the Nine?) to eliminate the competition?

Got me. But the Inquisition is real, and they're coming. We seem to have forgotten about them in here.

Ooooh, spooky.
Jake

[Christopher Kubasik]

Thanks Jake.

And your comment...

First off, anyone trying to take over the world is greedy by definition. How long do 3 such people get along? How long before they destroy each other in attempt to become "alpha male?"

...touches on my read on the matter, which I touched on upthread, that the sorcerers' SAs, personality and character, as well of those who oppose them, will have more to do with balancing this issue in RoS than, say, a D&D world.

I really think game balance issues are a will o' wisp on the issue. It isn't what rule/mechanica/game balance/spell/counter intelligence/magical arms race that will stop such sorceers.... It's other characters, driven for one reason or another, to stop such sorcerers.

Who might stop such men and women abusing such power?  Well, that's a story, isn't it?

Thanks,
Christopher

[Jake Norwood]

Who might stop such men and women abusing such power? Well, that's a story, isn't it?

Exactly! Sounds fun, huh...and oh, the danger...oh, the risk...

This sort of thing takes real heros.

Jake

[Lyrax]

Who might stop such men and women abusing such power?  Well, that's a story, isn't it?

It's more than a story.  It just may be YOUR story!  Or, if you are a clear-minded thinker, the story of your fellow players.

:-D

[Jaif]

Lyrax wrote:

Also, killing the stahlnish commanders wouldn't work that well. The whole army is already in chaos, so the troops are probably used to it.

I really have to disagree with this sentiment; it runs counter to every shred of documented evidence in human history.  A leaderless army is a mob, not an army, and organized armies have been defeating mobs since ancient days.  The Romans made a living of it.

Sorcerers can, over time, destroy the supplies and command structure of an army.  I have little doubt that an organized Gelure can defeat most any non-sorcerous army they meet.  The only holdups are time to regen dice, and the social stuff everyone is pounding away at.

The reason I've been trying to avoid the social side is that Uglub is going to play on that too - it's going to largely cancel out.  Uglub is not trying to kill everybody on the planet, he's trying to rule them, and the common man on the streets isn't really going to care.  Uglub's going to deal w/minor nobles to give them their little slice of heaven, dabble slightly in throne wars (overtly or covertly), and save the big sorcery shtick for demonstrations rather than use it to bludgeon his way to victory.  Last, with the other thread, I think we all agree that he's quite aware of what he's doing, and he's not going to make plans that don't take into account the needs of sorcerers.  He'll adeptly offer them security and/or power, and as long as his empire is seen to be expanding, he'll have plenty to offer.

On a few subjects:

RE: Angharad

This is one I've been thinking about.  If Uglub is, say, the Rebel son of the Sidhe, vowing to rid the world of his annoying brethren, than their response is likely to be huge.  Assuming he isn't, I still think Angharad will factor in if a) attacked directly, which I think is unlikely while Uglub has other targets, b) surrounded, which is more likely.  I see Uglub putting more thought into the magic of Angharad than Angharad worriying about Uglub, but once Angharad wakes up to the danger it's gonna get nasty.

RE: Inquisition

I mentioned early in the thread a group dedicated to hunting sorcerers.  I forgot about the inquisition - thanks.

RE: The Meta-Plot

I'm a big believer in a meta-plot, as long as it's a guideline and not scripture.  I very often map out a dark future history w/o the PCs involvement; this is what will happen if the PCs don't intervene.  I also do this more by mapping intents then scripting events.  For example, if I decide Farrenshire is a tiny little nothing of a nation that Uglub gives to some sorc to pacify that sorc, then Uglub probably doesn't care much when the sorc is killed by the PCs.  OTH, if Farrenshire was supposed to be the example of his might, and the PCs stop an invasion, Uglub may get involved in the followup on the basis of pride.

I would like to point out that the meta-plot on pg 201 does mention a counter-crusade by the Sultan, and that the shard is still held in Hash'mat.  I wonder what the shard does?

RE: Sorcery

One thing I've been trying to think through is magic that doesn't derive from the gift.  Things like mithril steel, or the power of amber to cloud mystic vision, or the wood of some tree that can be used by the gifted to channel their energies (like a +1sp on all summoning spells).  If some people know (the inquisition?) that Ravens can sense the gift, then maybe they train Ravens and keep them near all their meeting places.

Stuff like that.

RE: Sorcerous Vision

I've got a question for you guys - what does the phrase '...provided he has some for of a link to the event.' mean to you?  This is the limitation on clairvoyance, and I think it's vital to this discussion.  What's a link?

-Jeff

[Lance D. Allen]

One thing I've been trying to think through is magic that doesn't derive from the gift. Things like mithril steel, or the power of amber to cloud mystic vision, or the wood of some tree that can be used by the gifted to channel their energies (like a +1sp on all summoning spells). If some people know (the inquisition?) that Ravens can sense the gift, then maybe they train Ravens and keep them near all their meeting places.

Awesome ideas, and just enough to get any man thinking in that direction if he's a mind to. I'd say that dogs and cats (in fiction and folklore, both are known to react to the supernatural) could also be trained as Sorceror detectors, and that the mythical effects of running water could be used to protect against most types of Sorcery unless a way was found to bypass the water.

As for what counts as a link, I think I'll retreat to classical literature and belief. Any part of a person's body, hair, skin, a tooth, or nail shavings could be used as a link. For that reason, many, many people were very careful to destroy such things, because of superstitions that a witch or wizard could use them to put a hex or curse on them. Portraits, anything which symbolically represents someone (such as an ornament carved in the shape of a child's first initial) or a dear possession... any of these could be used as a link to someone.

This reminds me of something that should definitely be added to the reading list. It's a children's book series, but it's awesomely done all the same. It's the "Dark is Rising" series by... Susan Cooper. I can't give an exact list of the series, but it's an absolute inspiration at how it turns a mixture of Arthurian Legend, British Isles Folklore, and a classic plot of good and evil into a very rousing story.

[Jaif]

I'll second the Dark is Rising in a heartbeat.  Great read.  I think it was mentioned, but Chronicles of Prydain by Lloyd Alexander were awesome as well (The Black Cauldron became a Disney piece).  Taran Wanderer and the High King (books 4 & 5) are two of my favorite books: I draw on images from those all the time in my gaming.

-Jeff