[Harn] Another character and more questions

[Randulf]

Hiyas.  I've got a character concept from another player - I think he mostly gets it.

He's another knightly character, whose demon is a parasite that inhabits his eye.  The demon's Need is master's pain, but its Desire is master's glory.  He's mentioned two Perception related Abilities:

1. The ability to perceive his opponents' defensive weaknesses, and
2. The ability to communicate with master by causing him to see messages in the scars on his arm.

How do people generally handle the "perceive opponent's weakness" ability in combat?  Should I just roll for the success of the Perceive ability and then award some bonus dice if I deem that there's a tactical advantage to be gained?

Does the second ability make sense?  I'm guessing it would be a totally seperate ability from the first, right?

Next, the player wrote:

Anyway, that is where I have been going with this character concept.  I
definitely like the idea of an internal demon that is mistaken by the character
as a mental sickness of some sort.  The character doesn't hear voices or talk
in strange tongues--the demon communicates with and drives the character
through his visual perception and possibly through some sharing of pleasure for
pain.

Which kinda conflicts with a paragraph I love from Dave's summary PDF:

Contrary to what popular fiction would have you believe: it is not
possible to summon a demon "accidentally". The universe is not going
to leave the means to break its laws just laying around for someone to
stumble over. Sorcery is based in **meaning it**, more than you've ever
meant anything in your life. If you're willing to Summon and Bind a
demon, it is because you need something accomplished that you are
willing to risk everything for.  There is no "oops, I summoned a
demon, what should I do now?" No. It's more like "Yes, great
ZZzraharn, I have summoned thee. Here are thirteen vestal virgins, and
here is a list of people I want turned inside out by morning." Get the
picture?

How has anyone handled it, where the character doesn't think the demon exists, but just thinks that they are crazy?  It's a little like the Naive sorcerer who thinks he's Mad, except that he's so Naive he doesn't know about demons...

I'm thinking if he comes up with a decent tale for how he came to consciously bind the demon, he could subsequently degenerate into the later state of thinking of it as an inborn illness.  Maybe something happened in childhood that he's since dismissed as a long ago tale that didn't really happen the way he remembers... ?

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Scott

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Scott,

A demon in his eye! Cool.

1. The ability to perceive his opponents' defensive weaknesses, ...

How do people generally handle the "perceive opponent's weakness" ability in combat? Should I just roll for the success of the Perceive ability and then award some bonus dice if I deem that there's a tactical advantage to be gained?

The rule is: roll the Perceive against the Cover or Stamina of the opponent, usually before combat starts. Victories from that roll, if successful, become bonuses to the next roll, if it's a combat roll.

However, there is way too much GM fiat in your paraphrase. There is no "if." You can deem this and deem that, and it makes no difference. When the player makes this roll and succeeds, he gets that bonus. Don't bring your "deeming" into the picture at all.

2. The ability to communicate with master by causing him to see messages in the scars on his arm.
Does the second ability make sense? I'm guessing it would be a totally seperate ability from the first, right?

Makes perfect sense. Yes, it's a different Perception ability altogether.

As far as the contradiction between character perception ("It's just a voice in my head") and the absolutely necessary awareness of the master-demon relationship in this game ...

Well, there is an answer, and it plays successfully, but it is green-belt Sorcerer. The character must still ritualize and personalize the "voice in his head" in a fashion any of us would call demonic, as a metaphor. My supplement The Sorcerer's Soul has a whole chapter on this kind of play and approach.

However, as I say, it's green belt. Many beginning Sorcerer players, when they suggest such a thing, are finding a way to minimize responsibility and, in fact, fear, during play, pertaining to the scary relationship with a demon.

If I had all this to do over, "Naive" would not even have been an option in the core book, and I'd have reserved it for The Sorcerer's Soul, just as I did with Pact and Sorcerer & Sword.

I'm thinking if he comes up with a decent tale for how he came to consciously bind the demon, he could subsequently degenerate into the later state of thinking of it as an inborn illness. Maybe something happened in childhood that he's since dismissed as a long ago tale that didn't really happen the way he remembers... ?

See, that's backwards. What you need is a concrete, ritualized, master-demon relationship now, as well as a clear and simple way for the demon and the character to communicate.

Now, I do not think you should wave Dave's summary or this post in your friend's face. It may be that he is already a green belt and has every intention of playing rock-and-roll Sorcerer with this in-denial guy. Which would be very cool, and as I've said, it works. So all you need to do is check in to see what kind of ritualized, agreed-upon deal the character has made with the "voice in his head." As long as such a deal exists, as the player states, then you're good and you can move right into Kicker and play.

Best, Ron

[Randulf]

A demon in his eye! Cool.

Yeah, I thought so too. <grin>

1. The ability to perceive his opponents' defensive weaknesses, ...

How do people generally handle the "perceive opponent's weakness" ability in combat? Should I just roll for the success of the Perceive ability and then award some bonus dice if I deem that there's a tactical advantage to be gained?

The rule is: roll the Perceive against the Cover or Stamina of the opponent, usually before combat starts. Victories from that roll, if successful, become bonuses to the next roll, if it's a combat roll.

However, there is way too much GM fiat in your paraphrase. There is no "if." You can deem this and deem that, and it makes no difference. When the player makes this roll and succeeds, he gets that bonus. Don't bring your "deeming" into the picture at all.

That rule sounds like what I would've guessed - is it written somewhere that I overlooked, or does it just flow from the game's currency?  If he wants this ability to be significantly useful, he'll have to bump the demon's power, it sounds like, since right now the two abilities are all we've discussed.

And you're right about the fiat - if the perception roll works well, that's because there was a weakness and he saw it.

As far as the contradiction between character perception ("It's just a voice in my head") and the absolutely necessary awareness of the master-demon relationship in this game ...

Well, there is an answer, and it plays successfully, but it is green-belt Sorcerer. The character must still ritualize and personalize the "voice in his head" in a fashion any of us would call demonic, as a metaphor. My supplement The Sorcerer's Soul has a whole chapter on this kind of play and approach.

However, as I say, it's green belt. Many beginning Sorcerer players, when they suggest such a thing, are finding a way to minimize responsibility and, in fact, fear, during play, pertaining to the scary relationship with a demon.

If I had all this to do over, "Naive" would not even have been an option in the core book, and I'd have reserved it for The Sorcerer's Soul, just as I did with Pact and Sorcerer & Sword.

Interesting, thanks for the food for thought.

I'm thinking if he comes up with a decent tale for how he came to consciously bind the demon, he could subsequently degenerate into the later state of thinking of it as an inborn illness. Maybe something happened in childhood that he's since dismissed as a long ago tale that didn't really happen the way he remembers... ?

See, that's backwards. What you need is a concrete, ritualized, master-demon relationship now, as well as a clear and simple way for the demon and the character to communicate.

Now, I do not think you should wave Dave's summary or this post in your friend's face. It may be that he is already a green belt and has every intention of playing rock-and-roll Sorcerer with this in-denial guy. Which would be very cool, and as I've said, it works. So all you need to do is check in to see what kind of ritualized, agreed-upon deal the character has made with the "voice in his head." As long as such a deal exists, as the player states, then you're good and you can move right into Kicker and play.

Got it.  Thanks again for the input.

[Randulf]

A demon in his eye! Cool.

Heh, he pointed me to the apprentice rules (which I hadn't read all of) where he got that idea.  Which leads me to my next question:

2. The ability to communicate with master by causing him to see messages in the scars on his arm.
Does the second ability make sense? I'm guessing it would be a totally seperate ability from the first, right?

Makes perfect sense. Yes, it's a different Perception ability altogether.

Now Regin in the apprentice rules communicates by writing words in spilled blood that the character sees.  He doesn't have a perception ability to drive this.  I'm guessing your 2006 statement (quoted above) overrules Regin's 1998 writeup, just wanted confirmation.

Cheers,
Scott

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Scott,

Do not use the Apprentice rules for anything at all. That is a rule. They are only on the site for archival interest regarding the history of Sorcerer. They have nothing to do with "rules" in the sense of using them for play, at all.

That said - you are incorrect in thinking that a sorcerer would need a Perception ability in order to communicate with his demon. Such communication is fundamental to their relationship and is always part of play, when the demon and sorcerer are in proximity (as if they were people). However it's defined, for that character and demon, is all right.

So in that case, the situation you're reading in the Apprentice rules is 100% correct and is not overridden by anything.

How does that relate to my comment above? Because I think I misunderstood what you said:

The ability to communicate with master by causing him to see messages in the scars on his arm.

I read this to mean that there are three people in the situation: the sorcerer, his mentor, and a demon. I thought you were talking about the demon giving the sorcerer the ability to receive messages from his mentor.

Now I understand that you are talking about the demon and sorcerer communicating with one another. In which case, no ability is needed.

(To stave off a potential future misunderstanding, this does not mean that a sorcerer and his demon are always mentally linked. The automatic-communication I'm talking about follows human-human communcation logic - they have to be near one another. Whatever you may have read in other posts that seems contradictory, if any, is always about some kind of long-distance communication, which does require a Perception ability and sometimes Link, depending on how it's conceived.)

Best, Ron

[Randulf]

You understand correctly - when I said master, I meant the demon's master, i.e. the player.  Thanks for the clarification, and I'll pass along the warning about the apprentice rules to my players.

Cheers,
Scott