Sorcerers seeking the Truth - My first game

[rabidchyld]

Well it wasn't a complete disaster, but sometimes it came pretty close.  

I had redrawn my relationship map, and spread out my NPC's and their revelations, I opened up the story (as it were) to give the players free reign in the realm of what could happen.  I read to them out of the book the finer points of the rituals and combat so they were clear on what they could do, and explained to them one last time that they were in control of the story.  

My post about the characters and who they are, as well as a pre-game question is here

I gave them the details in their first scene and set them off.  They did very well roleplaying their dialog with each other and the NPC's, but when it came down to actually doing something they all looked to me for either approval or to tell them what to do next.  I found myself saying, "I don't know, what happens?" an awful lot.  

I provided bangs, but only one of the bangs managed to further their ambitions.  The rest were duds, and I'm sure that was my fault.  The game itself started and stopped a lot, with the players going really great and playing it to the hilt, then when it got to a climax of some sort they all went silent and I found them staring at me.  Then I would have to say, "Keep going!!  This is what it's about!!".  

They are beginning to make their story.  Tass is trying to make Wasp a member of his coven.  Gretchen (Katie finally named her character) is already a member, but she feels uncomfortable because Tass wants her to perform sex rituals with him.  She had her last straw when he wanted her to help him summon a demon and she refused, so he found a beautiful woman to do the deed and forced Gretchen to watch.  (Humanity check!) She got sick of it and had her demon sneak out of her amulet and try to asphyxiate the woman (humanity check..even though she turned out to be a demon, she didn't know it at the time), but the woman turned out to be a passer demon and binded with Tass (another humanity check).  Now there is a major conflict between Dara (the demon) and Gretchen.  Wasp doesn't want to become a member of the coven, but he wants to get to know Tass better because he suspects he knows something about his mother's death.  Tass is getting a little paranoid because he suspects another sorcerer is watching him, and may have found evidence of a demon at a mass grave site that Gretchen is investigating.  

After the game we talked about the problems we encountered and agreed that it all came down to a matter of getting into the right mind-set.  They all brought up that they are a little uncomfortable with the knowledge that there is no "set" beginning, middle, or end of the story.  Then one of my players asked how far does his authorship go.  He has plans and a story all his own for his character, which involve confrontations with demons and other sorcerers that he wants to put into play.  I couldn't tell him an answer to that, because I honestly don't know.  

Advice? Comments?

[Christopher Kubasik]

Hi,

FIRST
Sounds like you've got a great, adventerous group.  Give yourself credit for going this far. And since you want to improve for the next session, you will.

SECOND
I'd suggest a little less concentrated effort on you part, more fun.  

THIRD
Kickers.  Did Tass ever get one?  Are they strong enough? Gretchen's investigating the ritual death of a close friend.  That's a step down from lover or family member.  Is it strong enough?  Is she actively going after this?  Wasp finds a diary with.... Something about his mother, "possibly her death?"  How about proof mum was murdered?  That's a kicker.  When all else fails, the players have these emotionally based, plot kickers that they chose.  Anytime they don't know what to do next, this kicker should be gnawing at the back of their brain.

Did you get a chance to look at the Rethinking the Kicker thread link Ron left you on your other thread?

FOURTH
The Demons: you didn't mention any interaction between the sorcerers and their demons.  Is this because there was little or no interaction?  Remember, the Sorcerer's demons are MAJOR NPCs.  They have Needs that must be met, Desires that need to tickled.  They get finicky.  They argue, demand, and seduce.  Are they in play?  Certainly, if not, there's a lot to activate any scene right there.

To be honest you've got a tattoo, an amulet and a house.  (How the heck does the sorcerer utilize his demon when he leaves his house?)  Have they managed to shove problematic interaction with their demons to the background by making them mute and easy to ignore?  (I don't know: just checking.)

FIFTH
Ron notes in the Sorcerer rules that beginning players tend to get all deer-in-the-headlight because they don't know how much they're capable of.  If I were you, check your Bangs.  Do they demand action?  Bangs not clues, they're not hints, they're not mood or inference-- they're BANGS.  The space marines walk through the reactor coolant tunnels and the ALIENS UNFURL FROM THE SHADOWS! BANG!  That'll make 'em figure out how much they can do.  Other Bangs can be less action driven, but just as abrupt.  In the Art Deco example Ron worked out on the Sorcerer board, he came up with the Bang of a man's head exploding from a gunshot wound in the middle of a party -- no gun nearby, no gunshot, just a bullet entering one side of the guy's head and exploding the skull out the other.

This is the kind of thing that usually gets the players' attention and gets them to take action.  (And remember, both the R-Map and the Bangs are for the PLAYERS, not the characters.  You're looking for ways to hook their intrest.

SIX
Actually, there is a "set beginning, middle and end."  The beginning is the Kicker, the middle is everything on the way to resolving the Kicker, and the end is the resolution of the Kicker.  Did you guys play out the Kickers?  That is, three seperate scenes, one for each character, playing out the Kicker as a scene?  You wrote you "gave them the details in their first scene and set them off."  This doesn't sound like the Kickers were played out.  It sounds like (and I might be wrong) you gave them some exposition as a group.  

Don't do that.

The Kicker is where the player gets to try on his or her character for the first time, test the water, as it were, in an emotionally charged scene.  The Player discovers, in action, what the choices are and what choice their character makes.  It's also when you say, "Okay, you wanted to know if you're mom was murdered?  All right, she was, and here's the really creepy fucked up part you had no idea was coming."  That's a beginning.

(Remember, the player picks the Kicker, but you're job is to keep it spinning in unexpected ways, respecting the mood, tone, and style of the Kicker.)

Using my favorite example, Ripley in a hospital bed.  An alien baby writhes inside of her -- the very same kind of creature that killed her crew.  It presses against her ribs to get out.  She tries to get help.  The alien shatters her chest, is born.  She wakes up.  She can't sleep at all and keeps having the nightmare.  Her life is a living hell.  The story is dealing with this challenge.  The end of the story is her destroying the monsters once and for all.... And finally getting some good sleep.  She didn't know what the story was going to be... But she had a problem and had to solve it.  Do your sorcerers have the same?

SEVEN
This may or may not have been an issue, but remember that the PCs don't have to hang out together all the time.  Cut back and forth between them, cutting on moments of crisis, decision and imminant action, cycle through, and the hop back to the PC to find out what happens.    

EIGHT
Personally I don't think your players should be anticipating scenes and climaxes.  Sounds to me like they're not engaged enough inthe moment, and anticipating what's going to happen in the next moment.  I think if you review the Kickers, the Demons and the Bangs you'll clean a lot of that up.

NINE
Remember my points One and Two.  It's a big new world you're playing with.  It'll take effort, but it will be worth it.

Take care,
Christopher

[Fabrice G.]

Hi,

Chris: great post!

rabidchyld: and that what's you call something close of a disaster !?!

Well, it sound pretty good to me !
You had great involvement, good roleplaying, interesting stuff going on...and it's only your first run !!!

I can only say: relax and give yourself and your players some time to get to know the system, and what's about narrativism. So far you seem to do pretty well.

Christopher is right when he underline the importance of the kickers. Be sure to re-check them (even with your players), be sure to make them as exiting and engaging as you can...and voilà, you'll get a cool story with a begining (the kicker itself) a middle (all the way trough the resolution) and a climax (the resolution !).

You're really on the right path, so courage !

Fabrice.

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

I agree with Fabrice regarding the run itself. What disaster? That was a classic, successful, initial run of Sorcerer. Keep going - keep going. I am pleasurably anticipating the moment when, figuratively, the players seize your throat and slam you up against the wall, and it's you who are looking at them like a deer in the headlights.

Everything said by Christopher and Fabrice is pure gold. Read, enjoy, and consider - and especially, adopt those demons into your li'l heart and learn to love them, and play them with zest.

Best,
Ron

[rabidchyld]

Thanks you guys, I feel better.  I guess I thought it was close to disaster because we didn't fall directly into the game.  I know that is an unrealistic expectation anyway.  

The players have been really involved in their kickers so far, Wasp is almost obsessed with the journal.  I think once he gets into the game he's going to go to great lengths to find those missing pages.  Gretchen is investigating the death of her friend, but it may turn out that her friend was more than she wants to admit.  She's enlisted the help of Tass to determine positively if demons were involved.  

Tass did finally did make his kicker.  He caught and banished a demon that was sent by another sorcerer to spy on him.  

They did not play out their kickers at the beginning of the game.  I don't know why.  That was not smart on my part.  Next time I will definitely have them play out their kickers first.  

As far as the demons go, there has been lots of interaction, especially with Dara, Tass's newest passer.  Gretchen and Wasp have both decided that their demons get their need daily, and have gone to great lengths to make sure they have their needs.  There weren't many opportunities for them to really employ their demons, though, so there weren't any chances to find out if their demons are really satisfied.  I'm a little concerned about the house.  I'm still working out how I should handle that.  It's need is the souls/essence of people or creatures.  Tass has not as yet attended the need, so bad things might start happening there if he doesn't do something soon.  As far as Dara, she is the most fun I've had in a while.  Her need is sex, which is kinda trite, but she's bound to an old man who can't perform as much as she needs and therefore tries to get down the pants of anything ambulatory.  On top of that, she and Tass were interrupted during their binding rite, which happened to be a benefit to Tass, and so she has not been completely satisfied yet.  As a result, she is in need, and it is Gretchen's fault..and she's not happy with Gretchen.  I see much conflict in the future.  

I'm working on good bangs for the next game.  Part of my problem was that I had put too much plot in one place and were roping the players in.  The day we were playing was the day I scrapped everything and started over again, so I made weak bangs.  That was entirely my fault.  Now that I have a week to really get some good ones I don't think there will be a problem there at all.  I'll also have a better idea of the back story, as well.  

Next time will be better.  

Thanks guys,
melodie

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Melodie,

After checking out your original thread and reading this one again, I had a thought.

One of your players has a story-goal set for his player, it sounds like. He was wondering how far he could trust that it would happen, or how much power he had in terms of making it happen.

I suggest that you make it clear that he does have a lot of power, but that the process of playing Sorcerer throws kinks and twists into "plans" for players just as much as it does for GMs.

This is a funny way to play. Usually, people are accustomed either to (a) the players constantly adjust to the twists and reversals thrown at them by the GM or (b) the GM constantly adjusts to the twists and reversals thrown by the players. In Sorcerer, everyone is riding the tiger, all the time. Just as in a band, everyone is really riding the tiger of "the song" - which doesn't really exist until they're done.

Best,
Ron

[rabidchyld]

Thanks Ron!

I have been thinking about the same thing myself.  I talked to the player and told him what you said and it clarified most things.  I, personally, am worried that he's so set in his story that he's roping himself into a pre-set ending by his own design.   I feel like he's railroading himself.   I'm going to do what I can to prevent that.  

His main question was if he could initiate combat on his own.  Something like, "As I'm standing on my front porch, out of the corner of my eye I see a shadow move.  I move to intercept and find a demon/thug/whatever and pull out my dagger and throw it."  or whatever...

I'm sure that I can accomadate him on the fly like that...but can he do that?  I'm being quite thick about this I know.  

Many thanks,

Melodie

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Melodie,

Inventing opponents into existence is permitted or encouraged for players in some games here at the Forge (Soap especially), but it's not part of the design for Sorcerer. I think that it has a lot of potential for getting out of hand, not in terms of "GM losing control of the game," but more in terms of losing the focus on character decisions as the point of play.

Still, I don't want to discourage people from trying new things. So ... how about starting with a small or less extreme version, and just see how that goes?

I suggest asking the player to  make suggestions for such things, but not to share the authority for actually establishing them in the game very much. That would be your job; what he knows is that you will consider the suggestions seriously and not dismiss them.

Try this for a session or two, and see how both of you like it. Then get more extreme or less extreme as seems most appropriate.

How does that sound?

Best,
Ron

[rabidchyld]

Sounds absolutely perfect!  

We'll be having a meeting hopefully today or tomorrow about our game and I will bring up all this new stuff with my group and also run a few combat rounds so we all have a feeling of what we're doing.  

By the Gods, Ron, you are just the best.

Melodie