[Agon] chasing shadows for Hades

[Emily Care]

We played Agon last night for the first time out here in western Mass.  We had a very fun time slaughtering mercenaries and members of an ancient assassin cult, though the first time play learning curve made for some mechanical bobbles that I wish we'd avoided.  I gm'd, with Vincent Baker, Joshua A.C. Newman and our friend Tony Page playing heroes questing for greatness by searching for shadows under the bright Mediterranean sun.

Joshua played Xenocrates son of Phoenix.  A soldier from the invading Persian army. He stayed behind to find his destiny in Greece after the Persian horde was wrecked on the rocks of the mighty Greek defense of their homeland.  This became a theme of the game, and the initial Oath setting scenes all took place during the war. Xenocrates had an elephant and played the horn, two bits of color which got a lot of play and became key elements at various points. His character was fleet-footed.

Tony played Meges, an Athenian orator, who had lost an eye and who was a devotee of Vulcan. His remaining eye was wise-eyed, appropriately enough, and Tony had this character talk his way out of (and into) many a scrape. This put him at odds with the other two who were more of the "swing sword now, ask questions later" variety which made the trio nicely competitive.

Vincent's character was called Abantes. He picked Hades as his god, and made the character a man-killer.  He seemed to have the hardest time getting a hit on who his character was, so we brainstormed a bit about him. What was his connection to Hades? What kind of hero was he? Joshua suggested he might be from Egypt. Cause ancient egyptian religion, it's all about the death thing.  And what made him a man-killer? He was a soldier, of course. An Egyptian mercenary, and, we come to find out, working for the Persians in the war. 

Oath taking
The oath scenes led very fluidly one from another.  I had Joshua go first and we framed his flashback in the war.  He played it out with Tony's character, who was trying to rally his troops with stirring oration while Xenocrates blew his horn from elephant back to lead his troops to crush the Athenians.  We framed the scene, then they dropped into character to describe their actions, and Tony gave us some very convincing oratory.  (Let me tell you, these three guys are so funny, just simply to hang out with as people. It was a total blast to get to gm for them, and it was a great mercy to have them play amongst themselves while I tried to rifle through the book, figuring out how to bring in advantages, run battles, gain glory and so on).  Joshua won, so Meges owed him an oath as the better leader of men. 

When we negotiated the stakes, I had them tell me why, if they lost, they would look up to the other.  The scene with Vincent's character was, of course, a mano e mano fight in the frey.  Joshua and Vincent figured out that if their character won, it meant that the other guy spared his life, and hence owed him one for not properly p'wning him on the battlefield. This helped them get into their own characters, as well as better define the relationship between each pair of characters. I wonder if that is the natural way to frame that, and if others do so too. Tony's character ended up having 3 oaths from Abantes, which put him firmly in the place of acting as Meges' bodyguard throughout the game. The final oath scenes took place after the war was lost by the Persians, with Meges and Xenocrates negotiating the peace, in which Meges took back all the virgin oracles who had been captured and took all the elephants for the glory of Greece.

So, with this excellent conclusion of the oath scenes, I had some thinking to do. I'd done my prep in advance, coming up with the charming island of Milos, of white sandy beaches and sparkling turquoise sea, the fisher village by the walled city of Lysatus, home to a university and learned, wealthy people.  The quest in mind was for Hades to send our intrepid heros to steal the Helm of Shadows.  But my mind reeled a bit at taking us from all this juicy back story that had been spun and plunking them elsewhere, plus, how to get them together now?  I actually checked in with everyone to make sure that the switch up to going on an arbitrary quest would not be too jarring.  I needn't have worried, that is what the game is about, and totally congruent with the subject material, and they were all fine with it.  A chasm opened at their feet exuding darkness and Hades gave them their commands in an eery whisper.  Off they went!

The Quest
These buckos were at eachother from the get-go.  Well, at least, Xenocrates and Abantes took issue with Meges' way of doing things.  I presented them with the map (which Meges' had provided, Tony winning the first point of glory from a lore simple contest), and Xenocrates' take on the situation killed me. Joshua said,"Okay, we can take this little fishing village easily, that will put us in position to crack the fortress, and once we have those our position will be secure."  Meges was like, "Um, that sounds great and all, but just a teensy bit more effort than, say, talking to them first and perhaps finding out where we need to go and getting what we need in a civilized fashion."  Abantes and Xenocrates: "We don't need no stinking talk, kill first, talk later."  Tony mentioned that it felt like an episode of Knights of the Dinner table, and I had to agree.  Tony got to be the Sarah for the evening.  As it turned out, they resolved the issue by having Abantes and Xenocrates give Meges the lead, then followed up on it by walloping the chief of the mercenary troop the 100 Swords as soon as Meges had created an opening for them to do so by talking  his way in to an audience with him. Enter our first battle.

Okay, simple contests were very clear.  Though I did mess up the glory giving in them--I realized I'd forgotten to award extra glory for contests with multiple participants, though there were few initially.  Battles were many layered and we ended up bringing in the factors a few at a time in each round of combat: first just using straight up weapons and abilities, then bringing in oaths and creative abilities.  But it took until the second battle for me to tell them about how to use divine favor and fate. That changed everything once we got that down, though, of course, I'd not read through the end game scenarios (dying an ignominious death with a low legend level etc), so Joshua burned through his Fate at the end of the game.  Had I to do it again, I'd go through the first battle scene methodically using the cheat sheet John provided.  It was all a bit helter skelter for me,  but we muddle through together, and had much fun regardless.  I have not classically gm'd much, which is part of the reason I wanted to play this game. To get more experience at that type of play.

What is this human thing you call gming?
The game really presented the classic "how do I follow what my players are interested in yet bring in my prepped material" issue.  I'd imagined them getting information about where the helm was from the Mercenary captain, Tyrtias, but instead they leapt on him to kill him. I had him give in the middle of the fight, thinking I'd have him spill his guts to them, but they offered him his sword to kill himself (which was coolness personified) and then argued over whether to kill him themselves for the glory, in the middle of which argument he turned and fled.  I had one of those "what the hell have I done now" moments.  I debased his character, and left them no closer to finding the helm. It all worked out, they took over the mercenaries, turned them inward up on the city they'd been hired to protect and went in to talk things over with the head of the university and the town, and let him know that they were in charge now.  I served them the grief by revealing that the mercenaries had been long awaiting some kind of mysterious onslaught that had yet to arrive.  The band of heros now had that to chew on as they sicked their troops on  the city, and talked the university head into giving them info on the helm. 

So, another about face for me. From the start I'd planned for the helm to be in the possession of the assassin cult the Shadow walkers, but instead all signs pointed to it being in Lysatus. So, there it became.  I'm sure it was fine, but it was just the funny kind of mental gymnastics that one does in these situations.  What they did was awesome, I did not want to undercut it by making their efforts meaningless, and I had to present menace or it would be boring. So necessity dictated. 

From there, a sexy assassin stole the helm from the deep dark dungeony holding room the scholars had it in.  Abantes got pawned by her, and henceforward was all fired up to go get it back and see that hot chick again. (Vincent demonstrated Abantes' "in love" face for us when the others tried to stall him--rolling his eyes and looking properly doofy).  They went toward the Shadow Walkers stronghold on the cliffs of Orcas, via the Ell Wastes and hit up the Riven Stone, home of the giantess smith Helike who told them the skinny on the helm, and offered to arm wrestle them for gifts.  I completely winged this (oh, John, I'm so sorry, we were cheating all night since we were just learning the rules : ) and gave each of them an advantage of special items from her forge.  Of the three, I think I handled Joshua's somewhat correctly. It was a magical horn that he used before the next battle to take away the assassin thief Jocastas' advantage of invisibility that she had since she was wearing the helm.  The other two were enchanted weapons, which I gave to Tony and Vincent as advantage dice on each roll in combat, which I was sure I was not supposed to be doing, but I'd committed and we just went with it.  The assassins ambushed the trio on their way to the stronghold and Abantes took in a shitload of glory in taking down Jocasta, while Meges reaped a goodly amount by picking off her assassin mooks.  The ganging up rules were properly viewed as being badass by the three players, and Jocasta's gaze ability helped me put the pressure on them. 

Rules questions
We misinterpreted how advances work--missing that a level up took multiple advances, so were awarding some in the midst of this battle. But in the post mortem, we figure we've got a pretty good handle on how it all works now, including the interplay between glory, legend and fate.  But I've got some questions about things that are unclear to me. Forgive me if these are already covered in the FAQ or other threads. I mean to go back and read them up now, since they will have more context and meaning for me having seen the game in motion.

1). Glory for mooks.  Can you gain more then one glory for killing a Mook? Is it equal to the number of victories you gain on them when they are killed, or based on their ability dice? Or is it always simply one?

2). Glory for named characters. Each character that has scored a wound on a named npc gets glory equal to the highest wound level inflicted with their name on it. But that is the only way it can be gained, yes? Not for inflicting the wounds etc.

3). Oaths. Can players gain oaths on eachother via simple contests after the initial oath building rounds?  Or is the giving of aid during battle the only way to gain more? Then, the perennial question of how oath dice are decided upon. Who chooses what attribute the oath giver lends and impairs? I recalled the discussion of abusive d4 oath giving, so I just ruled that out from the start. It's a useless piece of aid anyway in almost all cases.  We settled on having the person who was choosing to call up on or provide the aid be the one who chose which attribute it would be. If Joshua called on Vincent's character's oath to him, Joshua would get to say "impair your might!", or if Vincent chose to have Abantes lend aid to Tony's character that lorded it over him with 3, then Vincent got to choose which attribute he loaned in order to pay off one of the debts.  However, for some reason, the oath economy was very slack.  Likely because we mis-understood the ramifications of using Fate, though we didn't start using divine favor until later  in the game.  I think I would chalk most of it up to 1st time issues of just getting handle on all of the various resources at our command.  We didn't even get into special maneuvers.

4). Special items. There is a box for them on the character sheet. How would those work? How do you gain them? Would they be advantages?

5). Mooks defending in gang up mode. What do minions roll for defense when they are acting together? Do they lose their defensive benefit when they gang up?

Those are my questions for now. Thanks, John! It's a very fun game. We really just started putting it through it's real paces by the end of the session, but it we had a great night notwithstanding. I liked the island and quest creation a lot, though did have to use them all as notes rather than hard and fast ideas of what would happen, which is certainly the tone of your advice for the gm in the book.  I felt supported by the system in bringing down the pain on them, and in continually having things to feed into the narrative. Though one thing I was ridiculously glad I did which was above and beyond your suggestions was to jot down a long list of potential difficult situations to frame the characters into for their initial oath building scenes. Once we got up and running, everyone had suggestions of what the scenes would be, but it was great for me to have at hand a long list of tasty painfulness to be able to throw at them.  We had a long discussion after the game about the implications of the mechanics and how they all hang together, so Joshua, Vincent or Tony may have some more reflections to share. 

all the best,
Emily

[Valamir]

1). Glory for mooks.  Can you gain more then one glory for killing a Mook? Is it equal to the number of victories you gain on them when they are killed, or based on their ability dice? Or is it always simply one?

Just one.  But you can get positioning bonus tokens for the extra victories.
Basically you can use a attack Victory for 1 of 3 things:  Wound, Armor, Penalty, or Position Bonus.  Since you only need 1 wound, and Mooks have no armor, its a good way to rack up the Position Bonuses for next round.

2). Glory for named characters. Each character that has scored a wound on a named npc gets glory equal to the highest wound level inflicted with their name on it. But that is the only way it can be gained, yes? Not for inflicting the wounds etc.

You get that glory when the NPC is defeated, not when the wound is inflicted, yes.

You also get Glory equal to the total Strife of the battle divided evenly between the combatants (unless someone fled) with any excess going to the hero with the highest fate.

3). Oaths. Can players gain oaths on eachother via simple contests after the initial oath building rounds?  Or is the giving of aid during battle the only way to gain more?

Oaths are negotiable.  You can charge oaths for performing Healing during the Interludes.  You can charge oaths for moving someone advantageously during positioning.  Basically "I'll help you if you give me X Oaths" is the formula where "help" can be actual Helping Dice in a contest or any other form of assistance that makes sense in the narrative.

Then, the perennial question of how oath dice are decided upon. Who chooses what attribute the oath giver lends and impairs? I recalled the discussion of abusive d4 oath giving, so I just ruled that out from the start. It's a useless piece of aid anyway in almost all cases.  We settled on having the person who was choosing to call up on or provide the aid be the one who chose which attribute it would be. If Joshua called on Vincent's character's oath to him, Joshua would get to say "impair your might!", or if Vincent chose to have Abantes lend aid to Tony's character that lorded it over him with 3, then Vincent got to choose which attribute he loaned in order to pay off one of the debts.  However, for some reason, the oath economy was very slack.  Likely because we mis-understood the ramifications of using Fate, though we didn't start using divine favor until later  in the game.  I think I would chalk most of it up to 1st time issues of just getting handle on all of the various resources at our command.  We didn't even get into special maneuvers.

The person giving the die decides which die to give.  They could give their crap dice, but then they'd only expect to get crap dice.

4). Special items. There is a box for them on the character sheet. How would those work? How do you gain them? Would they be advantages?

You could also give the item powers off of the NPC list.

5). Mooks defending in gang up mode. What do minions roll for defense when they are acting together? Do they lose their defensive benefit when they gang up

Technically I believe that Mooks always defend as individuals and attack as a group.

[Joshua A.C. Newman]

I've got to bolt for the weekend, but I wanted to ask a strategy question or two:

Is it, in fact, the best strategy to use your Fate up to the point where you start rolling d10s in order to crank up your Glory aquisition? That would seem the best route to me, both dramatically (doing lots of cool stuff to define the character) and strategically: you get Glory faster, so you'll get bigger stats, so you'll lose Fate more slowly. Also, note below that it's kinda hard to get many more d10s.

Also, since die sizes get more expensive, doesn't that encourage evening out the characterstics? I think that what makes sense is to 1) make sure you have a d4/d8 exchange in each row then  2) to get the d4s up to d6s. It's cheaper than getting a d6 to a d8 and this one basically comes at d4 -d6 price). Then you raise all of your relevant d6s to d8s.

The only reason not to do this is if the players can call their own conflicts: I can want this to be a Music thing because I have my Music at d12 (at the expense of my other stuff). Obviously, a GM wants to lay down the pain and shouldn't choose Music; otherwise, Emily has to pull her punches. I don't fully understand how you agree on an arena of conflict, though; maybe this is implicit and I didn't understand. As I understand it, though, the only place where I can choose what skill to use is in combat, when I choose by deciding on a range. Is there a comparable choice for other forms of conflict?

[Valamir]

As I understand it, though, the only place where I can choose what skill to use is in combat, when I choose by deciding on a range. Is there a comparable choice for other forms of conflict?

Players have the option of demanding that any simple contest turn into a full on battle.  If its a non combat battle (like a debate or something) there are special rules.  There will be 2 different abilities available for use (instead of a weapon or shield ability).  The GM chooses one, the players collectively choose the other.  Each player then picks one to use for the battle (just like picking whether to use your right hand weapon ability die, or your left hand weapon ability die). 

Also you can always choose which abilities to Impair to improve your roll.

[Joshua A.C. Newman]

Thanks, Ralph. That answers my question, I think.

Oh!
One more thing.

It seems to me that a second sword is a more reliable defender than a shield. It's 2d6 so you're most likely to get a middling result, unlike a d8, where a 1 is as likely as an 8. So while a shield makes it so there's a 50% chance you'll defend between 4 to 8, the sword makes it so there's a 75% chance you'll defend at 4 to 6. It's a more reliable defensive option to take the second sword. It seems to me like these are reversed: dramatic sword parries are more spectacular and less likely than putting a big Greek shield between your pointy bits and my soft bits.

[Darren Hill]

5). Mooks defending in gang up mode. What do minions roll for defense when they are acting together? Do they lose their defensive benefit when they gang up?

They just roll the normal defence. The ganging up bonus is for attacks only. (This one is in the FAQ at randomwiki.)

Though one thing I was ridiculously glad I did which was above and beyond your suggestions was to jot down a long list of potential difficult situations to frame the characters into for their initial oath building scenes.

I wish I'd had the foresight to do that!
Thanks for an entertaining play report.

[Darren Hill]

Thanks, Ralph. That answers my question, I think.

Oh!
One more thing.

It seems to me that a second sword is a more reliable defender than a shield. It's 2d6 so you're most likely to get a middling result, unlike a d8, where a 1 is as likely as an 8. So while a shield makes it so there's a 50% chance you'll defend between 4 to 8, the sword makes it so there's a 75% chance you'll defend at 4 to 6. It's a more reliable defensive option to take the second sword. It seems to me like these are reversed: dramatic sword parries are more spectacular and less likely than putting a big Greek shield between your pointy bits and my soft bits.

In terms of which one rolls higher, they are actually almost equal. If you roll d8 v 2d6, each has a 44% of rolling higher than the other. But, looking at absolute target numbers, d8 has the advantage if the attacker rolls 4 or higher, while 2d6 has the advantage ONLY if the attacker rolls 2 or 3.
And if you have any extra dice to roll for defence, like your Name Die, your Sword or Shield Die, or an extra d6 or d8 from the Spear (the latter of which is only possible with a shield), the balance swings even more in favour of the d8.
D8 + D6 is better than 3D6.

[rafial]

I am rocked back on my heels by the awesomeness of your achievement scenes.

That's exactly how they should be run!

[John Harper]

This is so incredibly awesome.

Emily, I want you to GM Agon for me! The achievements were perfect. I left them somewhat vague in the book, but when you have players that know something about history, they can get very meaty and cool, as yours did. Rock on. And your quest sounds like a lot of fun. I think it's great how you stayed flexible and used your prep as a springboard rather than a strict script of action.

It looks like Ralph and Darren answered most of the questions already. Thanks, guys.

Joshua, the players can set up conflicts by establishing goals. You say, "Let's go play our songs of battle and glory for the King so he'll let us borrow some of his troops." Then the Antagonist frames the scene and establishes the conflict, but clearly, you've set up a Music contest.

About using Fate: Fate is tricky. You only get so much, and each completed quest takes a point away. Since each quest is probably worth 30-50 Glory, you miss out on a lot of potential Glory when you tick off a Fate box (it's one less quest you can do in your lifetime). It might be worth it, but you're going to have to work very hard and really pwn your fellow heroes. In the long-run, burning through a lot of Fate is a bad idea.

Thanks for posting the AP!

[Darren Hill]

Also, since die sizes get more expensive, doesn't that encourage evening out the characterstics? I think that what makes sense is to 1) make sure you have a d4/d8 exchange in each row then  2) to get the d4s up to d6s. It's cheaper than getting a d6 to a d8 and this one basically comes at d4 -d6 price). Then you raise all of your relevant d6s to d8s.

That's an interesting strategy. I think it might be flawed because the amount of glory you get (or seem to get from the adventure I've been running) means that getting ratings to d10 or d12 is not hard to achieve. Your name die will reach d8 and d10 eventually, and the difference between a d4 and a d6 ability is then pretty marginal. Plus, when you do get to roll them, those d10 traits are far better to have than a load of d6's.
So my advice would be to not worry about the d4's too much (though you'll probably get enough advances in the long-term to increase a few of them without sweating it) and concentrate on increasing a few well-chosen traits to d10 and d12, and then start on increase d6's to d8s (with the goal of increasing them to d10 and d12). Having a d10 or d12 trait for Interludes (Refreshements and Sacrifices) is very, very beneficial - not to mention following John's advice and choosing traits you'll find easy to push for contests in during quests.

[Tony Irwin]

The game really presented the classic "how do I follow what my players are interested in yet bring in my prepped material" issue.  I'd imagined them getting information about where the helm was from the Mercenary captain, Tyrtias, but instead they leapt on him to kill him. I had him give in the middle of the fight, thinking I'd have him spill his guts to them, but they offered him his sword to kill himself (which was coolness personified) and then argued over whether to kill him themselves for the glory, in the middle of which argument he turned and fled.  I had one of those "what the hell have I done now" moments.  I debased his character, and left them no closer to finding the helm. It all worked out, they took over the mercenaries, turned them inward up on the city they'd been hired to protect and went in to talk things over with the head of the university and the town, and let him know that they were in charge now.  I served them the grief by revealing that the mercenaries had been long awaiting some kind of mysterious onslaught that had yet to arrive.  The band of heros now had that to chew on as they sicked their troops on  the city, and talked the university head into giving them info on the helm.  

I loved this, it really made me laugh. Thanks for sharing it. It reminded me of the days when I bravely tried to take AD&D out of the dungeon and quickly found that I felt a lot happier running D&D dungeon adventures. It also explains why I much prefer GMless games now.

I still want to learn though. What would you do differently next time? Is there anything you can now "teach" from this experience? I don't own Agon though, so let me know if it's off topic. I read that paragraph and thought "Yeah! That's why I play Universalis and everything I write is GMless!" and was hoping to hear more about it.

Thanks,

Tony

[Emily Care]

Thanks everyone! This was a great game to play. So much good material to draw up on from myths, plays, and history.

Since each quest is probably worth 30-50 Glory, you miss out on a lot of potential Glory when you tick off a Fate box (it's one less quest you can do in your lifetime).

This is another factor that long term play would make more clear. That ratio puts things into perspective.

I still want to learn though. What would you do differently next time? Is there anything you can now "teach" from this experience? I don't own Agon though, so let me know if it's off topic. I read that paragraph and thought "Yeah! That's why I play Universalis and everything I write is GMless!" and was hoping to hear more about it.

I am in the same gmless boat with you. That's exactly why I wanted to take that role this time around. It hones your skills for serving adversity and also holding mechanics in your head. (I got a work out there!) This question is right on topic for me. And I'm sure you & I are not alone in this community.  Let's see, some take away lessons I learned...

1) Prep is your friend. Before the game, I went through the entire process of island and encounter creation. I did additional things, like coming up with a list of dire situations for the achievement scenes, and even came up with a couple details in advance about settings and characters so that I could provide the color details that John recommends bringing in to your gming.  A rule of thumb I tried to keep in mind was to have 2-3 of the 3 sense engaged. 

2) Don't be a slave to prep.  All that great stuff you come up with ahead of time? It's all in isolation from what the players will do. Toss it overboard or adapt it ruthlessly if they come up with better stuff that may be incompatible.  Run with the great ideas of your players.  Ixnay on the ailroad-ray.

3) Know the rules. Oh, man. I tried to do this, but I just couldn't remember all the ramifications and interactions of the rules. In future, I would use John's cheat sheets religiously. I had the book with me and put bookmarks in passages I kept refering to, but I think I might take notes on a separate sheet instead if I found myself referring to something not on the quick rules sheets more than once.  I've mentioned this already in my post, but I would definitely go through the procedures for battles step by step with the players.  They were very helpful in remembering the rules as well.  If I'd had the opportunity to run through the mecanics prior to play with Vincent or Joshua just as an example of play some other day, I think it would have been a lot easier to do it in play.

4) Don't back down needlessly. I had an npc back down in the middle of a fight because I was afraid I'd lose an opportunity to give them information. Not to worry about that. There is always somebody else around who can rely info to the pcs.  If an npc is in a fight, that is their job: to provide adversity.

5) Strategic choices can be really fun. When I was prepping for Agon, I kept wanting to drift it. I had this idea to ask the guys "what does your character most regret?" so I could tailor challenges to really hit them where it hurts emotionally.  I decided not to, because I wanted to run the game how it's written. And also, I realized I was trying to graft a thematic package onto a  game that already has a tremendous amount of substantial player choice already.  The challenge in the game lies in things like the positioning system, in the trade-offs between Fate and Glory, in the calling in of Oaths.  No need to gild the lily here, it's already a thing of beauty, it need not toil or spin thematically, too.

best,
Emily