[Stealing Heaven] basic mechanics, themes, and such'n'junk

[Spooky Fanboy]

Finally, a question that's probably coming from my excessive exposure to WoD games: The higher you get your Initiation stat, the more Sway you can handle without getting burned and the bigger Designs you can build, and that gives you a crack at even more power.  So what about all the Perfect Masters out there in the setting?  Is there an uneasy hierarchy of Initiates trying to move up the ladder, or one big Guru every so often running a spiritual protection racket on the little guys and getting paid in Sway, or what?  Are there burned-out areas where a certain Master has turned cannibal and "eaten" all the less powerful Initiates? 

I don't actually expect canonical answers or a well-developed world, but how do you want it to work in the game?  Obviously, there's got to be rival Initiates, because the clash of Designs seems like a big part of the fun. 

I was worried about this as well. How do we, as GMs, keep the players from being smothered by the NPCs, but suitably threatened? Do the Ripple rules help there? The only other thing I can think of is: you need to stat out the Perfect Masters and the Grand Design they're working on right now. Diagram it out, and if the players intersect in any way with that Grand design, only then will the players risk running afoul of them. Beyond that, the Perfect Masters do not give a shit about your character. The lower-echelon gimps, the ones your characters can beat if they get crafty...they're a differnt story.

[Spooky Fanboy]

Additional setting notes: I like the Agents and the Enemy, and I like their assymmetry (individual antagonistic clueless agents versus a unified, sophisticated and seductive Enemy.  I'd like them even better if they were really divorced from Heaven and Hell -- they could just as easily emanate from the two poles of the Jungian oversoul, or whatever. 

I can see it almost like Yin and Yang. One part of the universe creates and sustains, one part culls. It's just how it works. Humans, for all our vaunted intellect, are supposed to be part of that. Initiates, however they do it, break themselves out of the normal flow of things, and become a cancer: dependent on the universe, but having a goal that threatens the fabric of the universe itself. Sometimes the Creative side will assault first, in the hope that the Initiate will come to his/her senses and back down. Other times, the Destructive side will emerge, and move to put the Initiate down quickly. Both support the other, because ther's a danger that the Initiate will become first an island, then a nation, then a world unto himself, and may even begin to reshape the universe. Other times, the Destructive side will hitch a ride, in an attempt to do what it does: bring the end of everything, so that it can reboot.

Something that occured to me: this would make a kickass vampire game. Think about it: In Bram Stoker's Dracula, the titular character got to be where he is by "dark magics." In short, he chose his undead state, similar to how Initiates choose their position. It would be easy to emulate with Tricks: get a Trick that allows you to siphon a tiny bit of Sway off of normal people (too much at once will kill them, and it doesn't matter what you "eat"; it could be luck, blood, youth, libido, etc.), and then supplement that with a Trick that lets you donate some Tricks to your infected ones (as well as allowing them to collect Sway in the same manner that you do), but in return gives you their undying (literally!) loyalty, and lets you siphon off a bit of whatever Sway they harvest, like celestial network marketing. Problem is: they're loyal to you, but they still jockey for power, may not be stable or bright, and will most assuredly draw unwanted attention as they try to top each other to court your attention. You can cut them off at any time (which will kill them), but do you want to endanger your Sway pipeline? As an added bonus, this can explain via Color how come Initiates are so damned hard to kill. Van Helsing and crew would be Angels (or Agents?) trying to get rid of the vampire threat. Of course, since you achieved your position through dark, foul sorcery, you still get to perform that, at levels that flesh & blood magicians cannot hope to compete against. All you have to do is suffer with the knowledge that, should you die, you'll end up somewhere worse than either Heaven or Hell, and you're stuck in your skin for all eternity. You might still be able to eat, drink, screw, etc., but your true diet is Sway, so you have to hoard it very carefully, or The Abyss awaits.

I like this game as-is, don't get me wrong, but I think that would be a kickass alternative for those willing to try it. And as the rules currently stand, it wouldn't even be that much of a change. From how I see it, Initiates are glorified cancers/parasites anyway, regardless of what power they have at their disposal. 

[Bailywolf]

Okay, so: an Initiate can do minor magician's tricks, and they can bend shit with Tricks. Also, a "real" Initiate is a person who can do Designs that can be Stars, Wands Cups, etc. for Grand Designs, and really reshape the world. *This* is the kind of thing players should be striving for. Got it.

Two quick things:

1) Is it possible to "save" a failed roll (specifically where you meant to roll over but rolled under instead), and have that be declared a win as long as you negotiate the fallout? Ie. You wanted to negotiate peacefully with someone, but rolled under Malice. Can yougo with Malice to temporarily get your way, but in the long term, you know you've fucke dup and it's only a matter of time before revenge is sought?

2) The only thing that bothers me so far is "Madness." I see what you're going for, but I think it's important to distinguish it from normal insanity. (Cuts out the "fishMalk" stupidity, and it doesn't make sense to me that an Initiate would get his luck jacked up without getting his body or brains unscrambled by Initiation also.) I'd almost prefer it to be called "Maddening Vision", because it indicates that the reason the Initiate acts so fucked-up in comparison to normal people is that he/she can see things that other people cannot. Those things exist, even though humans aren't supposed to see them. And while 'madness' might be a side-effect, it's crippling effects are limited to a point. I see it acting as the most effective hybrid between paranoid schizophrenia (you see shit that others can't, and you see the patterns behind everything) and sociopathy (it dulls your connection to humanity, making people seem less real to you.) What it does not do is make you lose control: you do that to yourself. Like the Freaks in your game, these Initiates seem to be processing other, inhuman senses that their bodies and brains weren't designed for, but it's not making them go off the deep end. For Initiates, full-blown lunacy should be a choice, or a risk from a backfired Design.

I'm sorry I haven't responded sooner- brain's been out of town.

The 'save' option it something I've been considering- you fail to roll OVER/UNDER so you can rather than fail, 'go with it' and change your intent... but with larger consequences.  Intimidating someone rather than understanding where they are coming from.  But doing so would have consequences.

Madness... isn't exactly right, I agree.  It's a function of their awareness of sometimes hideous realities, and how these new insights eclipse mundane ones.  Is there a single word which means 'hideous insight' or 'terrible vision'?

This looks even more interesting than it did the first time 'round.  I find it rather hard to keep the whole thing in my head at this point, though -- there are 4 stats (plus Sway), 5 traits, and five elements that must be put together for each Design, and it seems like there may be many Designs and partial Designs around.  I'm imagining having several character sheets in front of me at once. 

So here's my question: does all this complexity resolve into some higher level of symmetry in actual play?  Polaris, for example,  has lots of tricky bits to get right in chargen, but once you've figured out how to do conflicts, everything on the character sheet works pretty much the same way.
[/qoutes]

I certainly hope so... but I don' tknow if I'll know for sure until I can playtest it. 

Additional setting notes: I like the Agents and the Enemy, and I like their assymmetry (individual antagonistic clueless agents versus a unified, sophisticated and seductive Enemy.  I'd like them even better if they were really divorced from Heaven and Hell -- they could just as easily emanate from the two poles of the Jungian oversoul, or whatever. 

Indeed- they arn't really intended to be matched oposites... the Enemy isn't the Yin to the Throne's Yang- it's something hideous and horrible that wants to make the world into a cesspole and humanity into dancing pain monkeys.

Finally, a question that's probably coming from my excessive exposure to WoD games: The higher you get your Initiation stat, the more Sway you can handle without getting burned and the bigger Designs you can build, and that gives you a crack at even more power.  So what about all the Perfect Masters out there in the setting?  Is there an uneasy hierarchy of Initiates trying to move up the ladder, or one big Guru every so often running a spiritual protection racket on the little guys and getting paid in Sway, or what?  Are there burned-out areas where a certain Master has turned cannibal and "eaten" all the less powerful Initiates? 

Love it- and yeah.  Initiates tend to crap on each other when they get the chance... that's why young ones get together into mutual protection societies. 

I don't actually expect canonical answers or a well-developed world, but how do you want it to work in the game?  Obviously, there's got to be rival Initiates, because the clash of Designs seems like a big part of the fun. 

I'm playing with ideas on overlapping Designs where you're trying to bascially assimilate the other guy's Design, and make it part of your own, doubling down.  It's a great way to score Sway, but a great way to piss someone off really really bad.  In other words- something PC's will be all about.

I was worried about this as well. How do we, as GMs, keep the players from being smothered by the NPCs, but suitably threatened? Do the Ripple rules help there? The only other thing I can think of is: you need to stat out the Perfect Masters and the Grand Design they're working on right now. Diagram it out, and if the players intersect in any way with that Grand design, only then will the players risk running afoul of them. Beyond that, the Perfect Masters do not give a shit about your character. The lower-echelon gimps, the ones your characters can beat if they get crafty...they're a differnt story.

Higher order Initiation expands your occult perceptions... to someone playing with US national politics, your local struggles over the new hardware store don't even register.  The 'middle manager' types are the ones you really have to worry about.

Initiates are pretty rare- it takes a rare mix of insight, madness, ambition, and luck to become one.  An exact number?  Enough... a town or city might have a handful (the PC's plus a couple of NPC's) tops... likely much less.  They tend to gather at places of subtle occult significance.  You might have none anywhere else in the whole state of Georgia, but five in Athens if it was such a spot. 

I can see it almost like Yin and Yang. One part of the universe creates and sustains, one part culls. It's just how it works. Humans, for all our vaunted intellect, are supposed to be part of that. Initiates, however they do it, break themselves out of the normal flow of things, and become a cancer: dependent on the universe, but having a goal that threatens the fabric of the universe itself. Sometimes the Creative side will assault first, in the hope that the Initiate will come to his/her senses and back down. Other times, the Destructive side will emerge, and move to put the Initiate down quickly. Both support the other, because ther's a danger that the Initiate will become first an island, then a nation, then a world unto himself, and may even begin to reshape the universe. Other times, the Destructive side will hitch a ride, in an attempt to do what it does: bring the end of everything, so that it can reboot.

Something that occured to me: this would make a kickass vampire game. Think about it: In Bram Stoker's Dracula, the titular character got to be where he is by "dark magics." In short, he chose his undead state, similar to how Initiates choose their position. It would be easy to emulate with Tricks: get a Trick that allows you to siphon a tiny bit of Sway off of normal people (too much at once will kill them, and it doesn't matter what you "eat"; it could be luck, blood, youth, libido, etc.), and then supplement that with a Trick that lets you donate some Tricks to your infected ones (as well as allowing them to collect Sway in the same manner that you do), but in return gives you their undying (literally!) loyalty, and lets you siphon off a bit of whatever Sway they harvest, like celestial network marketing. Problem is: they're loyal to you, but they still jockey for power, may not be stable or bright, and will most assuredly draw unwanted attention as they try to top each other to court your attention. You can cut them off at any time (which will kill them), but do you want to endanger your Sway pipeline? As an added bonus, this can explain via Color how come Initiates are so damned hard to kill. Van Helsing and crew would be Angels (or Agents?) trying to get rid of the vampire threat. Of course, since you achieved your position through dark, foul sorcery, you still get to perform that, at levels that flesh & blood magicians cannot hope to compete against. All you have to do is suffer with the knowledge that, should you die, you'll end up somewhere worse than either Heaven or Hell, and you're stuck in your skin for all eternity. You might still be able to eat, drink, screw, etc., but your true diet is Sway, so you have to hoard it very carefully, or The Abyss awaits.

I like this game as-is, don't get me wrong, but I think that would be a kickass alternative for those willing to try it. And as the rules currently stand, it wouldn't even be that much of a change. From how I see it, Initiates are glorified cancers/parasites anyway, regardless of what power they have at their disposal. 

Oh yes- I sort of intended to provide example Tricks which would let you create good impressions of the classic monsters.  You can look at the whole of the Dracula novel as a gross misinterpretation of the Count's real motives- to establish a symbolic connection between his home and English soil allowing him to move his Designs into the territory of an English enemy Initiate.  Helsing and crew... they were his Elements, with Van Helsing as the Sword sweeping the Circle clean of all traces of Dracula, hiding him in occult obscurity.

I'm toying with a mechanical tweak- keeping the OVER/UNDER system, but keeping rolls yes/no rather than by degree with rerolls for escalation or to demonstrate competence or motivation. 

Ripples are disturbances in the occult fabric of corespondences and circumstances which confound your Designs- basically, they give the GM 'ins' into your Design to complicate your efforts to align the Elements... you create your own Trouble, confounding your long-term goals for short-term power.

-B

[Bailywolf]

Ah crap!

I got all the quote formatting buggered up.

I wish we had Edit.

-B

[Spooky Fanboy]

S'okay, I understood you.

Perhaps now is the time for me to quit interrupting you so that you can post some ideas you have for Tricks. Also, how they'd be gained, how they could be countered, etc.

[Spooky Fanboy]

One last thing! See if this answers the Madness problem:

Fixation: It's impossible to go back once Initiated, and you wouldn't want to, anyway. Connecting your consciousness to the Metaverse is a life-changing experience, and once you see the patterns connecting everything, you can't really unsee them. The more you delve into the mysteries, the better your use of Designs and the gifts you stole from Heaven (Tricks). However, there is a problem: the more you see the Higher Mysteries, the more difficult it is for you to pay attention to mundane realities like, say, your apartment has been entered, your friends are acting strange, etc. Fixation, for those under it's grip, combines the worst elements of paranoid schizophrenia (you see the patterns behind everything), ADD (it distracts you from reality), and bipolar disorder (it affects your moods in contrast to your actual situation.) You can see yourself as a God-Empress of Earth, even though in mundane reality, you're sitting in your own filth with a used heroin needle sticking in your arm, you haven't changed or bathed in days, your apartment's overrun with roaches, and that knocking at your door is your landlord with an eviction notice and some cops to enforce it.

Roll UNDER to perform Tricks and Designs. Roll OVER (an Awareness roll) to notice the events going on in plain, boring, everyday reality.

TRICK: The Fixation companion to Charlie Manson Crazy Eyes, Methods of Madness uses your skills with the Metaverse to notice the omens and threads of reality to warn yourself of an impending disaster. While to others you seem "otherworldly" (or just bugnuts loony!), you have a combination of diabolical luck and a scary intuition that keeps you out of harm's way and dodging the slings and snares of outrageous fortune that might otherwise keep you down. With this Trick, you can roll UNDER your Fixation score to be aware of things in the mortal world, and analyze situations accurately in breathtaking displays of lateral thinking.

[Spooky Fanboy]

Also, one more thing.

Should it be assumed that the incredible luck that Initiates have pretty much occludes them from standing out in history? Such that, if they commit a crime, it'll be difficult to track them? Or can that be covered by purchasing the right Tricks?