Thoughts on containing for summon rituals

[Rampage]

I was thinking on the implications of sorcerers with 1 lore, and I started wondering on the actual utility of contains while performing a summon/bind ritual.

Wouldn't all demons want to stay for the binding? Powerful big demons will want to stay because they are fairly sure they will come ahead in the binding. Small demons will want to stay because they can't stay "alive" for long in the world (assuming their purpose main purpose on wanting to be Here is to be able to fulfill their needs and desires, their second whatever is their agenda).

I do not think demons automatically attacking on summon if not contained is a good idea, because the sorcerer would have promised the demon the Need, and the demon certainly would want It (again, they prefer being "fed" by the sorcerer)

Now, on a fairly crappy contact or summon roll you could just get the wrong demon, maybe one that is hellbent on destroying that sorcerer for whatever the reason. In that case, yes, contain would be useful. But that wouldn't be frequent at all.

So am I missing something on the usefulness of contain when doing summon rituals?

[Eero Tuovinen]

Well, many settings will outright assume that, cosmologically speaking, demons are malicious and ravaging entities. If I were calling one up from the pits, Contain would be the least precaution. What if the demon doesn't think, for instance? If it acts like an animal? Then your cost-effort calculations about the rational choices for the demon are right out. It'll just rip you apart and go wander around for a while before the hunger bangs start weakening it, perhaps driving it to seek some other sorcerer who is not already digested for a binding. The point being that whether a Contain would be felt necessary would depend on the local magical cosmology and nature of the demons. Just like with humans, something being the smart choice for personal benefit is not always a guarantee that a demon will pick it. What if all demons are ardent Marxist terrorists? Or Moslems? Or life-firsters? Or Cylons? The demon might rip you apart because of ideological disagreement, even when its personal benefit would be to negotiate and make a deal with you fascist pig, you. A human might well act just like that, so it would be naive to assume that similar behavior would be impossible for a demon.

Also, it's fairly obvious that you could use the Contain as bonus dice for the Binding. After all, you have a degree of control over the well-being of the entity, so if threats are your chosen method for Binding, a Contain would be a good start in asserting your superiority, I imagine.

[Rampage]

My thoughts: If that particular instance of demon doesn't think or act like an animal, you already know that because you found out through the contact phase. If all demons are ardent marxist terrorists, I would assume that their need would be related, and thus they would welcome It being satisfied by the sorcerer. And if it is not, I have trouble seeing it as being a stronger impulse than their need.

After inspiration from your post what does sort of make sense for me (with mainly bastard scheming demons in mind) is if they didn't tell the whole truth about their needs in the contact phase, if they were particularly wicked and they sensed that the sorcerer might not put up with them and not summon them (through maybe will vs humanity to see if he wants to hide it, and the option for the sorcerer of making a will vs lore to find out its real one.. although they look as too many rolls really..). Then they would play along until they got summoned, reveal their real need, and go bonkers if its a no-no for the sorcerer and doesn't agree to a binding and inmediate satisfaction.

What do you think about that?

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Another consideration is play-events and decisions very far down the road of the story. Demons have a tendency to bounce around between Binders and between existence and non-existence. A demon that was Banished and re-Summoned may have no interest at all in being Bound by that particular summoner, and in fact may want to eat or disembowel him or her immediately, then run off to find the person they want to be Bound to.

Best, Ron

[Moreno R.]

Question: A just-summoned, unbound, uncontained demon, can bully the Sorcerer with violence to get a "better" deal on the binding?

I mean: if the demon hurt a little the sorcerer, enough to give him some dice penalties (and to give himself some victories to add to his binding roll), it would help his chances on the binding strength roll, or not?

[Ron Edwards]

Yes it would! Assuming the sorcerer would still go through with the Binding, which depends on some of the details of the particular scene.

But sure: if the demon beats the sorcerer up, and threatens to eat him if he doesn't Bind the demon, well, there's not too much choice there, is there?

Best, Ron