Character Advancement, Temporary Awards, And Mingling The Two

[AdAstraGames]

So, in playtesting Worlds of Honor, we've got the following "currency" discussions going, and since the folks here have more experience with this than I do, I thought I'd bring up the talking points.

I use a mechanism modeled off of TRoS's spiritual attributes, called Dramatic Hooks, with some changes.

A) A Dramatic Hook has to define how you interact with another person.
B) Dramatic Hooks can be cashed into skill points.  Completing the goal implicit in the Hook means it cashes out for double value.
C) Powers cost Dramatic Hook dice to activate in play.
D) Complications give Dramatic Hook dice for your suffering.
E) Instincts give a Dramatic Hook die if you go against them.
F) Working against your Dramatic Hook reduces it by one die.  Acting towards your Dramatic Hook and succeeding in the action increases it by one die.

In addition to 3 Dramatic Hooks (capped at 4D each), there's also a Mission Goal.  Which is like a Dramatic Hook in some ways (it has dice, dice add to whatever you're doing), but different in others (It doesn't have to tie to another character), it is shared by everyone in the party, and anyone working against it drops it for everyone.  It only cashes out when completed.  When it cashes out, it cashes out in attribute points, rather than skill points (attribute points can be used to boost attributes, buy powers, etc.)

Improving skills at attributes is fairly slow at usual rates of advancement.

Where the grumping is coming from is this:

"I have no problem with Dramatic Hooks if they were detached from character advancement.  Using your Dramatic Hook should be sufficient reward unto itself.  I'm worried that it'll result in players getting their story lines neglected."

And...

"I think charging a character point or three to buy a Power, and then charging Dramatic Hook dice to activate it is too expensive.  It will result in characters with Powers advancing at a significantly slower rate than people without them."

So, has anyone got actual play experience on either of these two issues, or insights on how to avoid them?

[Valamir]

Can you clarify the first problem...how does having Dramatic Hooks tie to character advancement tie to story lines being neglected?

[AdAstraGames]

Can you clarify the first problem...how does having Dramatic Hooks tie to character advancement tie to story lines being neglected?

I think the theory is that it'll cause people with Dramatic Hooks the GM finds uninteresting to build up resentment because they never seem to come into play.  To me, the answer is obvious:  Cash in the DH, talk to the GM and re-set it to something that'll get used.

Honestly, I'm relaying concerns from people who are jittery about the concepts of the game, rather than people who've actually played it; the gist of the argument is that they want XP to be something that doesn't reward favoritism by the GM (which is how they see Dramatic Hooks playing out.)

[Valamir]

Heh...well you of all people from back in the Delta Vee days know how much value there is in the grumping of the jittery doubting Thomases (cough).


My best advice is that those sorts of questions...does the currency reinforce what its meant to, and what are the unintended side effects, are best revealed (and often only revealed) via play test.  For example, does the Math mean that a character with Powers will advance more slowly...or in practice does a character with Powers wind up having greater opportunity to <utilize game mechanics> in a way that keeps things even.  Or is advancing more slowly even a problem (i.e. where problem = players avoid taking powers to avoid the effect).  That will really only come out in play.

[Lance D. Allen]

From a somewhat experienced TRoS GM, I can say that your players doubts do have some merit. I'm also someone working on a reward system that is a cousin to TRoS' SAs, so I've got some of the same concerns.

From my experience as Seneschal for TRoS, I've actually seen somewhat of the opposite effects, tho'. I would lean on SAs that the players had chosen, only to be met by lackluster enthusiasm for my efforts, and sometimes expressions of annoyance that "that guy" is back again. On the flip side, there were at least one or two SAs per player character that didn't grab me at all, or where I couldn't figure out how to bring a particular SA to bear in an interesting way.

Due to this, there was some level of resentment that built up. My players thought I was stingy in giving out the SA rewards. I thought they were not expressing enough interest in their own SAs. It eventually grew to the point where, despite the fact that it was everyone's "favorite" game, it seemed like it was work rather than fun for me to GM, so I eventually, after a frustrated outburst on my part, asked to put it aside for awhile. Other life concerns have made it pretty much certain that we'll never pick it back up again.

That said, the situation I had was a bit different than what your prospective players fear. As a GM, I was moderately conscientious in making sure that anything I introduced was tied to some SA or another, and when I noticed that I'd not handed out a reward for a particular SA in awhile, I tried to find ways to bring that one into the spotlight. It's possible that explicitly phrasing the GMs duties as bringing play to focus on the players' hooks will alleviate a lot of the problems your players fear; For the rest, unfortunately, it's purely a matter of whether or not the GMs and players will do as the game text directs.

For further discussion, and my own understanding, what might be some examples of Dramatic Hooks? I'm having some trouble getting an idea of how they're supposed to work.

[AdAstraGames]

Heh...well you of all people from back in the Delta Vee days know how much value there is in the grumping of the jittery doubting Thomases (cough).

Every player who tells me I'm doing something wrong, and explicates WHY, is helping me make my game better.  Even the people who go "3-D space combat?  You're barking mad..."

My best advice is that those sorts of questions...does the currency reinforce what its meant to, and what are the unintended side effects, are best revealed (and often only revealed) via play test.

My core mantra is that RPGs are a reward mechanism, not a simulation.  We want the reward mechanisms to explicitly reinforce the play styles we want to see.

Beyond that, the goal is to have something that's close enough to classic Star Wars D6 as a game engine that "old timers" will jump right in and play before they realize I've slipped a lot of funky Forge-type mechanics on them...and realize that those mechanics work better.

For example, does the Math mean that a character with Powers will advance more slowly...or in practice does a character with Powers wind up having greater opportunity to <utilize game mechanics> in a way that keeps things even.  Or is advancing more slowly even a problem (i.e. where problem = players avoid taking powers to avoid the effect).  That will really only come out in play.

The argument from people reading, rather than playing, is that they think that charging both an attribute point for a Power, and charging DH dice for a Power activation means that someone who's got a Power is at a mild disadvantage over someone who doesn't, and will advance more slowly because of the power usage.

My original position is that this lets a "free market" decide how powerful a Power actually is, and costs it appropriately.  Everyone has seen powers that were far more effective than their "balanced point cost" would indicate.  By making players Pay As They Go, the utility of a Power is reflected in its cost.  (Complications are Disadvantages that "Return As You Go" - the more often they come up, the more DH dice they give you).

My expectation is that most Powers will be paid for by taking Complications during character creation for the initial hit, and that the dice you get from Complications will likely be fed into the Power to run it...or, you'll make sure that your DH is firing when you use the Power, so that the net cost is zero for that scene.