mathematicians, some assistance please -

[jackson_tegu]

hello there, everyone.
i recently picked up a copy of Prince Valiant and would reccomend everyone who hasn't got one going out and snagging one right now, if only for the wonderful essays on how to play nicely together and what a player's goals are (for the purpose of this game, anyway).

something that has been boggling my mind is the thought of adapting its coin-based system to a dice-based system.
the game uses an accumulated pool of coins (d2s, really) with a stat plus skill plus modifier equals total to "throw", and determine "heads" as successes.
since it could conceivably be that my (brawn 4 + brawling 2 + modifier of 1 for some reason) character would have 7 coins to throw, i can't just roll a die with sides equal to the number of coins i need to throw.
soooo... is there a way, using dice or perhaps even cards (which is a whole other packet of worms) to mimic these same odds?
in short, can i create [1/0] + [1/0] + [1/0] + [1/0] + [1/0] + [1/0] + [1/0] = 0-7
(or, obviously since that is 1d8-1, wiseacre, then [1/0] + [1/0] + [1/0] + [1/0] + [1/0] + [1/0] = 0-6)
and ALL OTHER COMBONATIONS without simply using d6s as [1-3 = 0 ; 4-6 = 1], ie coins?

erm... does this even make sense?
i'll admit to really liking the coin system. it makes the storyteller/o.g. starwars/ ETC system(s) much less complex, cutting down on "search time" and giving a more sitting-around-the-round-table-gambling-and-drinking-the-nights-away, BUT my mind INCESSANTLY CONTINUES TO RUN IN THIS SHORT CIRCUIT and...

well, i fear a malfunction is on its way.
please help.

thank you, mathematicians.

[Callan S.]

i'll admit to really liking the coin system. it makes the storyteller/o.g. starwars/ ETC system(s) much less complex, cutting down on "search time" and giving a more sitting-around-the-round-table-gambling-and-drinking-the-nights-away, BUT my mind INCESSANTLY CONTINUES TO RUN IN THIS SHORT CIRCUIT and...

This is a question in the broader sense, but do you just want games of starwars that have the qualities of a prince valiant game? But you don't want to ditch the whole issue that was starwars, in doing so - that issue includes using dice, not coins?

Have you considered a dominant/submissive structure, where the prince valiant rules determine when the regular star wars rules are used? So the prince valiant rules, for example, would be rolled to see if you use the regular star wars rules to determine the outcome of something?

That way your still dealing with the whole thing that is starwars, without missing any parts in the process. But the way your deal with it, is like in prince valiant.

[Xeriar]

You can mimic the range but not the distribution.  Flipping seven coins will have a range of 0-7 (d8-1), an average of 3.5 (d6), and a bell curve concentration that you will have a hard time mimicking any other way.

Coins create a very stratified difference between two scores.  Someone with a score of 2 versus a score of 4 is in a lot of trouble, for example.  I originally used a d2, as in tails would be 1 and heads 2, but that was far, far worse.

[Eero Tuovinen]

I recommend using a computer or a graphical calculator, actually. If you have friends or relatives in high school, say, the chances are that they have one of those TI calculators that can run small programs just like that. So steal one of those and let a computer program do the dice rolling for you. Surprisingly handy when you don't have to use a tabletop computer.

Apart from that, no way to simulate the exact distribution of coins with other dice, except by simulating the single coin. Which is not that bad; many games use odds vs. evens or low vs. high in all kinds of ways. Universalis and Burning Wheel come to mind as games that use the 50/50 split in their pools.

[BlackSheep]

Apart from that, no way to simulate the exact distribution of coins with other dice, except by simulating the single coin.

Well, you can use a d4 to represent up to two dice, and a d8 represent up to three.  That knocks the number of coins/dice down, if that's the problem, but at the cost of increased complexity.

For example, with d8s:

             1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8
One coin     0  0  0  0  1  1  1  1
Two coins    0  0  1  1  1  1  2  2
Three coins  0  1  1  1  2  2  2  3

So for seven coins, you'd roll two d8s on the 'three coins' line and one on the 'one coin' line.

You can buy d8s already marked in this fashion.  They're called Ubiquity Dice:

http://www.exilegames.com/access/dice.html

You can also get hold of d6s marked 0-0-0-1-1-1, but that's just switching individual coins for dice.

Cards would be another option, although probably one that would be more hassle than it's worth - you'd either need lots of little decks or to keep resorting the same deck for each draw.

[Xeriar]

A pair of custom decks could be used to simulate up to six coins (64 cards), if appropriately marked.  It is a bit cumbersome, however, especially when cards go flying.

[BlackSheep]

Yeah, I had a 32-card deck worked out for five coins (black joker, five clubs, ten spades, ten diamonds, five hearts, red joker) but then I realised that it would only work for exactly five coins.  You'd need different decks for smaller numbers.  Unless you were willing to write on the cards, in which case you may as well just write on index cards and shuffle those up.

Actually, depending on how you put together the 32 cards, you might be able to work out something...I'm going to fiddle with it and see what comes out.

[Eric J.]

Yeah, it's pretty nearly impossible.  You might be able to fudge the distribution, though.  The only problem is that the distribution changes with how many D2's you use.

I don't know Prince Valiant so I don't really know what the system is going for.  For instance, it's mathematically impossible to make something simpler than flipping a coin.  Rolling any kind of dice, using any combination of cards, whatever.  It's impossible.

So what's wrong with how it is, in the first place?  That is, what do you need to fix?

May the wind be always at your back,
-The Living Alchemist

[jackson_tegu]

well, if this doesn't deserve a big old OMG then i don't know what does.
thanks immensely to all of you wonderful folks gutsy enough to plunge your hands into this goo.

in order:
esteemed Callan, i've sent you down the wrong path. i meant to use "big S" Storyteller, as in the system developed by white wolf, and equating that to (my narrow understanding of) older (original?) star wars rules and shadowrun (i think?) ... in short, other systems using the [THIS stat plus THIS skill is equal to the number of dice you roll, and HERE is your difficulty]; with prince valiant, since it's coins, the difficulty is always fifty percent, (1 and not 0), EVEN IF you have the most bad assest sword in the realm. (ie difficulties in other games, read as:white wolf, are always fluctuating.)
i haven't played starwars. erm. BUT it would be a lobely exercise in surrealism to play with more than one system within one game, and have them be not dovetailed together but instead have this dominative/submissive model, so one firefight is fought with d20 rules and then next ends up using Sorcerer.


Xeriar, you answered my formost question using the lexicon that was failing me. bell curve. distribution. exactly.
since the median number for prince valiant "throw" totals [x +y = total] seems to be around five or six; i doubt the 2 vs 4 difficulty comes up in play much, using that system.

Eero, an interesting idea. i'll admit i don't much like screens in my "actual play", but it seems that this could be a good strategy... now to convince ryan (school ager in my playgroup) to cough up the goods... i'll give him an experience bonus, always works. i've gotten so many midnight snacks made for me that way. (does this call for a mu-hu-ha-ha-ha? i think it does)

blacksheep... the mind boggles. it does. this is the solution i was looking for. dice which would cut down on the flying coins; when "search time" now includes crawling around on the floor, peering under couches.

i mean, that's what it comes down to really. i want to avoid "pausing" to pick up and re-toss (and re-toss...) the coins. while i'm fascinated by variant card systems, i don't think of them as immediately practical... the aforementioned packet of worms... (heh... not that this slows me down at all... damned variant card systems will be the death of me yet... if i don't make my save...)
so, eric, xeriar, blacksheep - while my heart swells with the thought and creative mathematics you've been up to based on my inquiry, any further along this line will be merely for the betterment of humankind and not solutions to this problem.

in fact, in the interim, we've developed another system which works well with the prince valiant rpg.
it's called laying a towel out on the table so the fucking coins don't bounce onto the floor anymore.

thanks, you mathemalkavians!
=/;^0
(um, so my guy is wearing a top hat, ok? it's late, i can do what i want)

-jackson