[Hero's Banner] The Madness of Tucaescu

[Tim C Koppang]

Obsession drove me to create... the complete Hero's Banner Passion Chart. There may be one or two errors or omissions, and if anyone can point them out to me I'd be grateful. Otherwise, enjoy.

This will be going up, along with an abbreviated version, on the TCK Roleplaying website later in the week.

[Nev the Deranged]

@_@...

you are a sick, sick man. I pity you.

(conveniently forgetting how many times I have done exactly this sort of thing)

[Tim C Koppang]

You have no idea how tired I was last night trying to finish the thing.

And, I already found a healthy handful of errors that crept in due a mistake that propagated down a row or two. Fortunately, these are easy mistakes to fix -- and I'll have the revised chart up tonight or tomorrow.

[Calithena]

We had our third session of play (fourth including chargen) and a lot of cool stuff happened. One character finished his story, the other two are very close. Some notes:

- Danielle kept wanting to give George fan mail a la PTA, and said "every game should have fan mail."

- The game is not playing as fast as some have suggested. This isn't a bad thing, as we're enjoying playing, but we were wondering about it a little. We're on about 12 hours of play after chargen, 8 scenes total per character, one character just finished, one will probably finish in her next scene, and one has 1-2 scenes left. That pacing is OK overall but would be better if we were a little faster. I don't know to what degree this is us and to what degree it's the system.

- George's final scene was sort of wrenching/depressing for me. His character had been distinguished (in my mind) by clever social ploys, good, diplomatic solutions to Paul's conflicts, and in general of borderline saintly behavior. One of his influences (I think Conscience, but I'm not sure) had involved the goal of restoring this ancient temple, and he had really managed to make me care about it through the way he played his character. But then, in what was his final scene, the noble family who was an enemy of his (the Lambruc) murdered his elderly mother, rather brutally. She was a crazy old harridan who he had fought every step of the way in her murderous ploys, and his resistance to her was a serious locus of ethical self-determination in my mind. But then faced with the murder, he decided to take his Blood to 100, and his family exacted bloody vengeance on the Lambruc in the end. I imagine I might have done the same thing, but it was still sad for me somehow.

- My character had a scene that went like this. In earlier scenes, having ridden north to Uran, he met Marjorie, a murderous arctic beauty, his true love. (Paul introduced this character and I went with it.) She wanted him to murder her father (the King of Uran) and stepmother (Danielle's character, his Tuceascan queen). He tried; he succeeded in poisoning the king, though the queen got out of it through some clever narration (I can't kill her anyway, but the narration to explain how she didn't take the poison was nice). Then my character and Danielle's got into a player vs. player scene where we were both riding to get the King's oldest son, a shaman-healer who had renounced the court of Uran and lived by himself. Marjorie and Teodor wanted to murder him so Marjorie could usurp the throne, while Roxana (D) wanted to find him to heal her husband. In the process of the ride Teodor murdered Roxana's brother.

So, anyway, we both missed, my miss was lower, Roxana took her reroll first and got a Breakdown, so the scene was left to her to narrate. At this point Marjorie wanted to go back and keep fighting, but I decided I'd had enough of this northern chaos and murder, and wanted to get back to my own castle in Tuceasucu. I punched her out, threw her over my horse, and rode south.

Now to the scene I wanted to describe. Simona, a noblewoman who my uncle had set me up with and whose favor I had worn the whole time through these Uran shenanigans, met us at dusk across the Tuceascan border with three armed men. She was furious about my liaison with Marjorie and drew her dagger to try to kill her; Marjorie drew her sword and would have killed Simona if one of Simona's men hadn't pulled her down. The two started fighting; I drew on my Conscience (true love) to protect Marjorie and keep them both alive. I failed twice.

So, I narrated Teodor killing one of the guards to get to the woman, Marjorie getting the better of Simona in the fight, Teodor grabbing Marjorie to protect Simona, and Simona plunging her dagger into Marjorie's breast, killing her. Teodor knelt over her, trying to stanch the wound with Simona's favor. Marjorie died in his arms; a single fear fell down his cheek. Then he rose, leaving the bloody favor in the wound, offered his arm to Simona, and said something like: "Milady honors me with an escort. Let us ride together to castle Vasiliu."

They were married shortly thereafter. Conscience went to 0, Blood to 80.

- I don't really agree with Clinton's 'attack the weakest stat' idea after having played through it with Paul mostly (though not dogmatically) following this method. (Paul was having some second thoughts as well.) First of all, even if your high score is up in the seventies, you're going to fail a quarter of the time, which is not never. Second, by always attacking the weakest you do force the important choices that drive the game farther, but there's something I think to be said for also attacking characters where they are strong, to give them a chance to establish themselves in pursuit of the particular influence/goal that goes with that stat. It's sort of like how the carrot and stick is more effective than the stick alone: you want people to care about their choices from the beginning, sure, but you also want opportunities to re-invest during play, so that when the really hard rolls come they're all the more poignant. Maybe 'attack the weakest' is a good default when you're not sure what to do as GM, but letting the story go where it wants to go, and letting characters establish themselves in pursuit of things they're currently focused on a little longer, seems like it's valid in certain contexts as well.

- At one point (I think just before the scene described above, though I'm not quite sure) Paul said that my character was an asshole. That hurt my feelings a little: not because he was wrong though. This probably isn't something to pursue in the thread but I figured I should mention it to Paul before it got lost in the misty sea of memory and our busy lives.

- Paul's GM skills are different from mine, but he's an astonishingly good narrativist GM. He whacks you with Mary Jane vs. the schoolbus full of kids over and over and over and it's different and ugly and interesting every time. When I'm on my game I'm pretty excellent at helping people 'visualize' or 'immerse in' the setting, and giving them opportunities to make interesting plans to deal with external adversity in character, but I'm not as good at this stuff so it's cool to see how someone else does it and actually be learning from the process.

On the whole the game's still delivering the goods.

[Paul Czege]

At one point (I think just before the scene described above, though I'm not quite sure) Paul said that my character was an asshole. That hurt my feelings a little...

It may not have felt like it but that was me giving you fanmail. You've raked Teodor more cruelly back and forth across his three influences than either Danielle or George, and he's moreso a wretchedly problematic character as a result. Dealing admirably with external adversity is one kind of protagonism. Teodor, however, is almost his own worst enemy. And that's something you just don't get so often in a player character.

Paul

[geestar3]

Lo, another player does appear. 

I'm George, player of Iancu Vostorya, loyal son of the aristocratic Vostorya boyars.

- The game is not playing as fast as some have suggested. This isn't a bad thing, as we're enjoying playing, but we were wondering about it a little. We're on about 12 hours of play after chargen, 8 scenes total per character, one character just finished, one will probably finish in her next scene, and one has 1-2 scenes left. That pacing is OK overall but would be better if we were a little faster. I don't know to what degree this is us and to what degree it's the system.

It just occurred to me, I wonder if part of this that all three characters have goals that are not just mutually exclusive, but directly in conflict.  Iancu's Blood goal was bloody victory in a vendetta between his noble family and another. His Conscience called for ending the feud.  Roxana's Blood wanted her to kill the barbarian warlord she was married to, one of her other goals was to bear the warlord's child (and support her husband, I think). Teodor's Blood and Conscience conflict was literally personified in the fight between his true love (a princess of Uran) and his future partner in dynasty-building (a noblewoman of Tucaescu). All of this meant that it often wasn't obvious (to me anyway) just which influence was the one to check in a conflict, and I think we spent a fair amount of time negotiating this.

- George's final scene was sort of wrenching/depressing for me. His character had been distinguished (in my mind) by clever social ploys, good, diplomatic solutions to Paul's conflicts, and in general of borderline saintly behavior. One of his influences (I think Conscience, but I'm not sure) had involved the goal of restoring this ancient temple, and he had really managed to make me care about it through the way he played his character. But then, in what was his final scene, the noble family who was an enemy of his (the Lambruc) murdered his elderly mother, rather brutally. She was a crazy old harridan who he had fought every step of the way in her murderous ploys, and his resistance to her was a serious locus of ethical self-determination in my mind. But then faced with the murder, he decided to take his Blood to 100, and his family exacted bloody vengeance on the Lambruc in the end. I imagine I might have done the same thing, but it was still sad for me somehow.

It was a jolting shift for me too. I had been struck by the misery implied by the description of the setting, and had designed the character with that in mind. His Hero goal was to restore a great shrine that would be both symbol and catalyst for a return to a time of prosperity. His Blood goal was to strike a crucial blow in the ongoing vendetta with another family, but his Conscience rejected the feud as a futile waste of lives, an offense against God, a deadly flaw in the strength of the kingdom.  As the game played out, I mostly raised Hero, and reduced Blood. I was getting into the idea of the shrine as a positive symbol, and there were some fun political and diplomatic maneuvers to go with. Meanwhile Paul mostly targeted Blood, my low influence,  and my character's widowed mother, the family matriarch, hatched more and more vicious and bloody attacks on our enemies.  The final shift of Influence was very much a result of Paul changing the circumstances in the last scene. Up until then the character's family was wealthy and strong, one of the leading noble families of the kingdom, but Paul changed that. Iancu learned that his mother had squandered the family's wealth and influence in pursuit of the feud, leaving them with so few resources that they could not defend her or themselves in the struggle with their rivals. This changed everything for him. I decided that his deepest loyalty was to the well-being of his family, and so his Blood influence, which had been zero, went to 100. It wasn't the cruel and humiliating fate of his crazed mother that did it (though that helped),  it was the the prospect of the whole family reduced to poverty and victimized by rivals.  While his kin were safe he could strive for other things:  peace between the families, or prosperity for the kingdom, but with his family in jeopardy he couldn't. 

All of this is leading up to something that I haven't fully thought out, but that has been in my mind for a while. It's seems weird to me that influence scores are so easily and radically changed.  My character spent most of the episode going in one direction, but in my final conflict check, I was able to toss all that aside and radically rearrange things. The only constraint on this is that he loses the chance to die confident in his life achievements, and instead has regrets.  Similarly, in the middle of an episode, when one still has only one or two connections, influence scores can change a lot and have very modest impacts. Some how it feels to me like there should be some dampening of these shifts as passion builds, or maybe just more cost to this.  I'm  not sure though.  It's probably worth mentioning that I'm a somewhat naive gamer, and it's a couple of decade since I played rpg's more than very sporadically.  Part of my discomfort may just be some uncertainty about what to do with all the freedom. 

Maybe 'attack the weakest' is a good default when you're not sure what to do as GM, but letting the story go where it wants to go, and letting characters establish themselves in pursuit of things they're currently focused on a little longer, seems like it's valid in certain contexts as well.

I agree with this. Also, if a character settles on one influence as high early, and stays with that, they end up with conflict checks against only one influence, over and over.  This seems limiting to me. Some of the coolest conflicts for me were the ones that were not the weakest influence.

[Tim C Koppang]

Great details here! I'm really enjoying this thread. On the other hand, I'm really sorry that I haven't been better about responding here lately. Suffice it to say I've been ridiculously busy. I did, however, want to clarify a few things that have come up.

First of all, just so everyone is on the same page, there is no requirement that the GM always go after a player's lowest-rated influence score. It's merely a suggested technique that is meant to ensure passion scores steadily increase throughout the game (and to ensure a variety of quality internal conflicts within each character). That said, when I'm GMing, I don't always go after a low score. As has already been mentioned, it's sometimes more dramatic/appropriate to set up a scene around a player's highest score -- especially if you're playing a slower-paced game. So challenge whatever influence you want. It's all perfectly acceptable! I suppose I'd temper the original suggestion by saying, "When in doubt, go for a player's lowest score."

On pacing, this is really an issue of personal taste. I've been able to run five players through a complete passion cycle in five hours. Then again, I've also spent three hours on one player. Depending on the time it takes you to drive a scene towards resolution, your game may run longer or shorter. But if you're looking for a way to speed things up, just be aware that you need to set a scene and move to dice rolling at a consistent and healthy speed. Lots of conflict and lots of dice rolling will quicken the game.

Dice can also affect the pace of your game. For instance, if you're always succeeding without the need for re-rolls, then your game will move along pretty slowly. Still, it sounds as if the slow pacing here is something other than fluke dice results.

My character spent most of the episode going in one direction, but in my final conflict check, I was able to toss all that aside and radically rearrange things.

What can I say? -- it's a feature. The idea is to allow for dramatic (or modest) swings of preference at any time. Just remember that you're supposed to change your influence scores to reflect what your character is feeling based on the scene you've just experienced; not the other way around.

As an aside, I also wanted to mention that I've corrected the passion chart I linked to above. It's now, hopefully, error free. Enjoy!

[Calithena]

I've been able to run five players through a complete passion cycle in five hours.

If you ever get out to SE Michigan, there's a bed in my attic, and I'll feed you. I want to see this. I have not even the slightest idea how this could work out. I do believe you, which is why I want to see it with my own eyes.

Thanks for clearing that up, Paul. :-)

Great post, George. I agree with you that it's a little disorienting how Influences change so freely and that most of the real consequences come late in the game, but I think that's probably important to preserve the sense that it's a 'real choice' you're making all the way through.

More when I can, family has arrived!

[geestar3]

Recently Sean asked me to post some notes about the game that I had emailed. We completed our first episode in May, and got a start on generating the next generation of characters, but have been on hiatus since then.

Here are some notes from the last session. I know I do not have it all, and welcome additions and corrections. We spent most of the session on the final conflicts and concluding scenes of Sean's Teodor and Danielle's Roxana:

The Demise of Jude Teodor Vasiliu:
Teodor and his family (wife Simona, toddler son and nursing infant daughter) are attending a feast and meeting of nobles at a castle in Tucaescu.  Some Urani are there too, part of a diplomatic delegation. While at a feast, Teodor discovers that someone has tied a stained old cloth around the neck of his son. The cloth is the favor that Simona gave to him when they parted the first time; he used it in a futile attempt to stanch the fatal wound that Simona gave to Marjori, late princess of Uran (see April 18 post).  Teodor had left it with the body of Marjori by the side of a road at the Tucaescan border two years earlier. He is deeply upset to see it, and frightens his son, demanding to know where it came from. This is soon obvious, as a young (16ish) Urani noble was watching them intently, and meets his gaze. They speak quietly, and the Urani tells T. that he is the one who discovered Marjori's body. He buried her secretly, and swore revenge on her killer, who he believes is Teodor. Teodor challenges him to combat on the spot, but the young Urani declines, saying he will take revenge "not now, not here, more likely when you least expect it." T. and his henchmen plan an ambush, but then T decides to confer with his wily uncle Vasili first. V. counsels him to wait, the Urani are leaving in two days. It is not in Teodor's nature to let such a threat to himself and his family go unanswered, and the next morning, when the young nobles are out hawking, he follows, intent on assassinating the Urani.  Instead he is astounded to find the young man alone in a clearing, speaking to the ghost of Marjori. Teodor drops his bow and approaches, shocked at what he sees. The young Urani says "the Uran have many secrets, look what can be done with a little blood." He then says that the full spell, to bring Marjori back, will require the blood of both the victim and the killer, enough blood that the killer will not survive. Once again Teodor is asked to choose between love and dynasty. He makes a decision: "When and where?"  "Within 2 days, before I leave."  T tries to get his wife to ride out into the woods with him, but she prefers not to (failed conflict check, I think).  He browbeats her into coming anyway. They meet the Urani, who waits with a golden bowl. T and the Urani attack Simona, T. slashing her, and the boy catching the blood in a bowl. She collapses, and is dying. Teodor looks to the Urani to start the spell, but he sneers, laughs, shouts abuse at Teodor, and kicks over the bowl. Teodor, enraged, beheads him with a single blow. Then he sinks to his knees, realizes what he's done, and is overcome with remorse. He takes Simona's dagger, the blade she killed Marjori, his true love with, and kills himself.

Talk about high drama! I was impressed. Teodor's Conscience goal was to marry a foreigner for love, and his Blood was to found a dynasty in Tucaescu, mutually exclusive aims.


Roxana Ends Her Days in Uran:
Trajan, Warlord of Uran, has brought his retinue, including Roxana, his Tucaescan wife, to the court of Ryeic.  He hopes to arrange passage for his armies south through the edge of Ryeic's lands to Prodan. Ryeic is ruled by a queen, and she proves to be a somewhat eccentric woman. She and the members of her court have shaved all their hair and cover their heads with tattoos of astrological import.  She offers to cooperate with Trajan, but only if he follows her fashion, shaves his head, and is tattooed. He is insulted by the suggestion (Urani, we determined, have heavy metal hair) and storms from the hall vowing that he will burn his way through Tucaescu instead.  Roxana confronts him, but I don't recall the details very well. My recollection is she challenged him, told him he was being foolish and stubborn, and walking away from a battle he could win if he would control himself and be patient. I don't know which influence she used in her conflict check, but she lost the roll, and Trajan was unmoved, irritated with her, and broke off the discussion with the bald queen of Ryeic, vowing to burn his way through Tucaescu instead.  They return to Uran, he to lead his armies to war, while she remains behind. In subsequent years, Roxana bears Trajan two children, a son and a daughter.  The son is raised at Trajan's side, and is a fierce warrior, but harsh. The daughter has true gifts of leadership, and may be the true hope of her people. Roxana is popular with the people of Uran, but not with Trajan.  He leads a campaign of conquest against the other kingdoms of the Cross, his son at his side, while Roxana remains at home in Uran. She ends her days there, with some regrets.

Bearing a son for Trajan, out of love, was Roxana's Conscience goal. She does so, but her relationship with Trajan is never what she hoped.

We decided that the next round of characters would be the next generation after Roxana, Teodor, and Iancu.  Sean's new character is a firebrand student, newly returned from Ryeic and laden with strange ideas. iirc, Teodor is his hero because he was a man of action who shook things up.

Danielle's is (I think)  a young boy that Teodor took to Uran to serve a visiting Tucaescan leader. The boy was magically prevented from aging for a time, and was adopted by Urani wolf tribesmen. Now he lives and acts like an Urani, though he is of Tucaescan blood, and has some strange Urani magic about him.

My character is still not well resolved. My tentative idea is that he is a country cousin in the late Teodor's Vasiliu clan, who has come to the capital to make his way in the world, and promptly fallen in love with the Domnitar's daughter. Iancu is his hero, a cultured courtier, master of intrigue, paragon of civilized demeanor. I was having a hard time getting a character concept together.

That's where we left it.  It's not clear when we'll play again. I suspect Sean will have some comments to add.