[Zen] Core Mechanic- Inverted Dice Pool

[Doplegager]

I'm attending GenCon this year with the Ashcan Front Booth, and am in the process of developing a system to introduce myself to the gaming community with.  I'm expecting to begin playtesting next week, but I wanted to drop by the Forge and see what kind of feedback I can get.  Here is the current version of the core mechanic:

ZEN: A Game of Taoist Epics in the New Occident
At present, the abilities of characters are governed by three attributes: motivations, skills, and circumstances.  Each attribute is ranked.  The mechanics assume that if a character's actions are attuned with the world, they are successful and that failure is a result of disconnection between a character's action and the way of the world.  Each rank in an attribute represents a disconnect between the action and the world; a rank of 0 represents perfect attunement, while a rank of 5 represents a complete disconnect.  Starting characters begin with motivations at rank 3 and select skills at rank 3 (all other skills are treated as being at rank 4 by default).

When attempting to accomplish a task, the dice pool is the sum of an appropriate motivation and skill, modified by any appropriate circumstances.  Dice rolled are d6's.  An average starting character, with a rank 3 motivation and a rank 3 skill, would roll 6d6 for most checks.

The Success Rate of the roll is equal to the lowest number rolled on any of the dice.  The higher the Success Rate, the more impressive the result;
1: Amateur success; except in contested rolls, this level of difficulty wouldn't require a roll.
2: Skilled success; succeeds with competence.
3: Masterful success; succeeds with great flair.
4: Legendary success; able accomplish seemingly impossible tasks.
5: Divine success; success that transcends natural laws.
6: Absolute success; succeeds with absolute perfection regadless of natural laws or other constraints.

Characters attempting something particularly difficult may have to meet a minimum success rate.  Something that requires training might require a minimum Success Rate of 2.  Something cinematic might require a Success Rate of 3 or 4.  Something absolutely epic might require a Success Rate of 5 or 6.

A Note on Attributes
Motivations may be improved to Rank 0; if no other motivations apply to a situation, the character uses a default 3d6 motivation.  Because Skills are firmly based in the physical limitations of the world, they may only be improved to Rank 1.  Circumstances may either increase or lower ranks; if a Circumstance would lower a dice pool below 1 die, the character may choose to reroll the 1 die for every negative integer (i.e. -2 would allow 2 rerolls).  The character is not forced to reroll and must accept the final result.  The result is that characters with high ranks are very unlikely to get a high Success Rate, while a character with low ranks are much more likely to get a high Success Rate.  Meanwhile, even the most powerful character has a built-in chance of having a low Success Rate.

Examples:
Doug has the motivation "Protect (rank 3): I want to Protect my sister" and the skill "Kung-Fu (rank 3)", for a dice pool of 6.  He's in a situation where he's fighting through some goons to rescue his sister, giving him a dice pool of 6.  He rolls: 5, 4, 4, 2, 2, 2.  His success rate is 2.  He's pretty lucky.  Several sessions later, Doug has improved.  He has the motivation "Protect (rank 0): Protect" and the skill "Kung-Fu (rank 1)", for a dice pool of 1.  Same situation.  He rolls: 3, giving him a success rate of 3.  Not the most impressive result, but better than he could have hoped for when he first started.

Questions:
1:  In this system, the more potent a character is, the more likely the luck of the dice is going to affect gameplay; weak characters roll more dice, and so are more affected by probability, while strong characters roll less dice and are so are more affected by individual dice results.  I think this works, but does this strike anyone as a flaw in the system?  If so, any ideas on how to change it?
2: Any comments on the Inverted Dice Pool mechanic itself?  Are there any other examples of something similar?  Does the probability of low Success Rates seem too steep to make it playable?

[Darcy Burgess]

Hi Doplegager,

As I was reading your system description, I was thinking to myself "Does this guy realize that being "better" means just being more random?"  And then I read your questions.

OK, given that you are aware of that feature, here's what I want to ask you:

What about that progression (mechanically weak to mechanically random) reinforces what your game is about?  For that matter, what is your game about?

Cheers,
Darcy

[Doplegager]

As I was reading your system description, I was thinking to myself "Does this guy realize that being "better" means just being more random?"  And then I read your questions.

A lot of systems I've encountered work from the assumption that progress is a process of accumulation; stronger characters have higher numbers or more bonuses.  Mechanically, a part of my goal was to make a game where progress is a process of simplifying.  Characters start out about the same strength as the average person.  By the end of a character's natural development, they've reached a kind of enlightenment, allowing them to accomplish seemingly impossible achievements by transcending false limitation.  At the end of the day, though, they're still human.

In regards to the character seeming to be more random, I don't think it's too much of an issue.  It's counter-intuitive, but the character isn't necesarilly more random; the odds of accomplishing a task improve as the character progresses.  The one thing that's missing is that a character can never become so skilled that success is gauranteed:

Let's say Doug has a skill something like "Brute Strength", and he's trying to stop a moving train with his bare hands.  For the sake of argument, this would require a Success Rate of 6.  If Doug has a Dice Pool of 1, he has about a 16% chance of success.  If Doug has a dice pool of 2, 2%.  Dice Pool of 3, .5%.  Chance of success becomes increasingly impossible, to .002% with a Dice Pool of 6.  In other words, something that requires a Success Rate of 6 is impossible for all but the most advanced characters, and even then it's unlikely.  So, as the character advances, the odds of being able to accomplish difficult tasks increases.

Meanwhile, let's say Doug is trying to use "Brute Strength" to pry a door open.  Let's argue this requires a Success Rate of 2.  If Doug has a Dice Pool of 1, he has about an 83% chance of success.  Doug's chance becomes increasingly less likely to succeed; each die has about a 16% chance of rolling a 1.  If any dice roll a 1, Doug fails the roll.  So, as the character advances, the odds of accomplishing relatively easier tasks increases.

For most purposes, I'm guessing that tasks that require Success  Rates of 3 or higher are exclusively the realm of advanced characters.  Most checks should only require a Success Rate of 2. 

[SpazMan]

I like the concept overall, I think it has a lot of potential. even though your last post was made while I was writing this, take a look and tell me if you think this might work for you.

I have an idea that might make the mechanic of lower scores work differently. I see that encouraging more negitive modifiers (possibly by letting modivations go into negitive numbers) might make things work better in the long run. Heres how I think it could work..
If you change up the negitive integer rule from "lower a dice pool below 1 die, the character may choose to reroll the 1 die for every negative integer (i.e. -2 would allow 2 rerolls)." to something like rolling a pool of d6 equal to the negitive integer and taking the highest result you have an spectrum that character walk though the stats, cause they go from weak characters that are hindered by the probiblity of large numbers, to being very random in their results when they hit 1 - 0 dice. to haveing probiblity in their favor when they become one with the world around them.

I hope that makes sense, feel free to talk about it with me more if you want more diolog about this.

[J. Scott Timmerman]

1:  In this system, the more potent a character is, the more likely the luck of the dice is going to affect gameplay; weak characters roll more dice, and so are more affected by probability, while strong characters roll less dice and are so are more affected by individual dice results.  I think this works, but does this strike anyone as a flaw in the system?  If so, any ideas on how to change it?

Skills seem unreliable.  Even someone completely attuned to their motivation and in complete mastery of a skill still has a 1 in 6 chance of performing like an amateur in a standard situation.  Keeps things human, I suppose.

So, characters start with either 6 or 7 dice in their pools?  That means that, in favored skills, characters have about a two-thirds chance of looking like an amateur, and in unfavored skills, they have about a 72% chance of looking like an amateur.

Since looking like an amateur is the worst a character can possibly do, it might seem depressing to players just starting out that they are coming up with 1s at least two-thirds of the time.  Since the difference between a 1 and a 2 is whether a character performs an action competently or not, it's not really statistically wrong.  A player just has to look at the dice in a different manner.

[/quote]
2: Any comments on the Inverted Dice Pool mechanic itself?  Are there any other examples of something similar?  Does the probability of low Success Rates seem too steep to make it playable?
[/quote]

Inverted dice pools do have a sort of novelty to them.  I think you could come up with some way to work the mechanic in favor of the game's style of play, if that's not already done.

Oh yes, and in either case with dropping the dice below zero, are you allowing people with Zero dice to reroll once?

SpazMan's idea, about increasing the pool but using the highest instead, seems a lot like the evil twin of Open Versatile Anime.  In OVA, when a pool goes to zero dice, you roll two, and take the worst result.  At -1 dice, you roll 3 and take the worst, and so on.

-Jason T.

[SpazMan]

SpazMan's idea, about increasing the pool but using the highest instead, seems a lot like the evil twin of Open Versatile Anime.  In OVA, when a pool goes to zero dice, you roll two, and take the worst result.  At -1 dice, you roll 3 and take the worst, and so on.

I have never heard of this OVA game/system. I wish to learn more about the people who can steel my iedas before I have them.

[Doplegager]

If you change up the negitive integer rule from "lower a dice pool below 1 die, the character may choose to reroll the 1 die for every negative integer (i.e. -2 would allow 2 rerolls)." to something like rolling a pool of d6 equal to the negitive integer and taking the highest result you have an spectrum that character walk though the stats, cause they go from weak characters that are hindered by the probiblity of large numbers, to being very random in their results when they hit 1 - 0 dice. to haveing probiblity in their favor when they become one with the world around them.

Skills seem unreliable.  Even someone completely attuned to their motivation and in complete mastery of a skill still has a 1 in 6 chance of performing like an amateur in a standard situation.  Keeps things human, I suppose.

So, characters start with either 6 or 7 dice in their pools?  That means that, in favored skills, characters have about a two-thirds chance of looking like an amateur, and in unfavored skills, they have about a 72% chance of looking like an amateur.

I think I've come up with a way to handle several of the problems that have been mentioned.  My original thought with Circumstances was that they would add or remove dice to and from the dice pool.  That worked fairly well with lower-level characters, but then I encountered the negative integer problem.  I was hoping to avoid anything that smacked of math, at least on the consumer side.

My current thinking with Circumstances is that Negative Circumstances still add penalty dice to the dice pool, thereby making success more difficult.  To contrast, every rank of Positive Circumstances allows the character to reroll a die if the Positive Circumstance is applicable to the situation.

This means that a) there are no negative integers to worry about and b) it's significantly easier for characters to have higher Success Rates.  If a character has circumstances favorable enough to allow 2 rerolls, they have a good chance of being competent  even with untrained skills.  Their potency also improves drastically once they've achieved mastery; roll 1 die, reroll up to 2 times.  I think that it empowers the characters more than I had wanted them to be empowered- if I go this route, I'll probably rework the Success Rate chart.  I think I'll also tweak the skills a bit to make them feel less abstract.

In this case, circumstances include contextual elements like being surprised or gaining a tactical advantage.  Circumstances also include permanent attributes of the characters.  For example, a character might have "I'm very disciplined", "I work out every day", "I have a bum knee" as semi-permanent Circumstances that can be applied to rolls on a regular basis.  This allows a mechanic for attributes that are neither Motivations or Skills.  I might change the name of "Circumstances".

For example: Doug is trying to stop the train barehanded, as in the previous example.  His "Protect" motivation is rank 0, his "Brute Strength" is rank 1, and he has the circumstance "I exercise every day" at 2 rank; he has 1 die in his dice pool, with 2 reroll.  Later, he tries to flirt with some ladies by flexing his muscles.  He doesn't have any appropriate skills or motivations, so he defaults to a 7d6 pool.  He's just trying to get some positive attention, nothing serious, so minimum Success Rate of 2.  Not the most scientific method, but I did the check 25 times and Doug succeeded 20 of them.  Which is unrepresentative of the bars I go to, but that's beside the point.

[Rafu]

What if characters *really* in tune with the Way had a limited amount of "rerolls" to use? That would only help gain a higher success rate if you were rolling very few dice, that's for sure.