Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil

[rabidchyld]

I've been debating whether or not I even wanted to post this, but decided to go ahead because I'm just so pleased about the way our game turned out last night.  Obviously, it's the D&D 3E Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil.  I started running it back in January.  We played a couple of times and then took a hiatus from it because I didn't really like the way it was going.  Part of it was the I didn't feel completely comfortable with the material, there's just so much in that book.  Another part of it was that there felt like there were too few options for them.  

In that time, we tried Sorcerer and discussed some role playing theory, and came back to it last night for our 3rd session with a new perspective.  The two best things were:

I relaxed a lot, and didn't try to force the players to do anything.  That campaign is so huge that anywhere they go something is going to happen to them.  Once I realized that, I looked at it more like a relationship map and the monsters turned into bangs.  It kinda made it feel like it flowed more smoothly.  

The players really got into their characters and started trying new things and getting more into a narrativist perspective.  Since I wasn't forcing them to do anything, they were able to come up with some really great scenes that would have never happened otherwise.  The absolute best was when the half orc decided to use the halfling as a weapon and throw him at a monster.  I was so happy when they quit asking me "can I do this ...", and started saying "okay, we do this..and we want this to happen".  

It felt like we all clicked at  the same time.  We had decided in the beginning that we wanted the game to be goofy fun, and up until last night it just wasn't.  I guess that's another problem that I had with it, too.  They wanted outlandish and hysterical but didn't get it until last night.  

Now all I have to do is make sure we keep it going like this.  The two things I am going to do before next game is make an actual relationship map for the town, because there are so many NPC's there and I think it would be easier to have them all in one place, and decide if I want to define how far over the top they can go or just let them go at it and see what they come up with.  Am I missing anything else?  

melodie

[Ron Edwards]

Melodie,

As usual, an amazing post. I'm especially happy that Sorcerer is performing both its goals of not only being fun in and of itself, but also of being a door to modes and methods of rewarding play with future games.

This struck me:
"That campaign is so huge that anywhere they go something is going to happen to them. Once I realized that, I looked at it more like a relationship map and the monsters turned into bangs."

I've found that early Ars Magica, Champions, and the more complex older D&D modules are all readily converted into powerful play aids when one takes this approach. They all require some tweaking, as a lot of the text presupposes success at various times ("After the characters deal with the guards ...") and many presume a Fight with the Main Bad Guy is the ultimate goal of play, and I often have to tie in NPCs who have no reason for existence other than to provide a hot fight.

Interestingly, many White Wolf, Earthdawn, AD&D 2nd edition (especially Planescape, Dark Sun, and Al-Qadim) adventure scenarios are incredibly painful for this purpose. They almost all suffer from egregious railroading and NPCs who lead the players by the nose.

Best,
Ron

[rabidchyld]

Thanks Ron, you're absolutely right.  Thankfully, in reading the book so far, I haven't come upon many, "once they defeat..." type things.  It seems to be mostly maps, history, and keys to where all the icky monsters lurk.  

My players have also had the realization that they don't have to destroy the Temple at all.  It has now become a world where all things are possible, and I'm pretty sure they have great and evil plans.  

mua-ha-ha!

melodie

[simon_hibbs]

This struck me:
"That campaign is so huge that anywhere they go something is going to happen to them. Once I realized that, I looked at it more like a relationship map and the monsters turned into bangs."

I've found that early Ars Magica, Champions, and the more complex older D&D modules are all readily converted into powerful play aids when one takes this approach. They all require some tweaking, as a lot of the text presupposes success at various times ("After the characters deal with the guards ...") and many presume a Fight with the Main Bad Guy is the ultimate goal of play, and I often have to tie in NPCs who have no reason for existence other than to provide a hot fight.

My current game is set in a city, and I've written up a lot of the main movers and shakers in the city, along with prominent incidental characters (if you see what I mean), what they are up to and how they inter-relate.

The problem is the game is turning into a bit of a soap opera. On the one hand this is a good thing - the setting is, I think, pretty well established in the minds of the players. The downside is that there is no realy cathartic 'final' showdown' currently in sight. It's tricky to keep the momentum going sometimes, although the characters do seem to get a lot accomplished each game session.

Maybe I'm being paranoid.


Simon Hibbs

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Simon,

Think of the final showdown being more about the players' own social and emotional investments, and you'll find that one is probably brewing already.

The "relationship map" method that Melodie is talking about is a big part of playing Sorcerer (my humble game), and I've found that it applies incredibly well to Hero Wars as well. The idea is that the NPCs have all these ties and so forth to one another, and that interactions with the PCs strengthen or stress those ties ... and since many connections exist, NPCs become more and more extreme and/or sympathetic over time. Given any existing injustices or inequities, sooner or later, something's gotta give.

Best,
Ron

P.S. I'm really enjoying your input at the Forge.

[rabidchyld]

The downside is that there is no realy cathartic 'final' showdown' currently in sight. It's tricky to keep the momentum going sometimes, although the characters do seem to get a lot accomplished each game session.

If you guys are having fun, then that's all that matters.  I can understand it can get a little frustrating, though, if you feel like the momentum isn't going.

Try throwing a random crisis (or several) at them and see how they react to it.  It might give you an idea of where they are headed in your story, which will help you flesh a few things out.  

Hope this helps.

melodie

[Wart]

I've found that early Ars Magica, Champions, and the more complex older D&D modules are all readily converted into powerful play aids when one takes this approach. They all require some tweaking, as a lot of the text presupposes success at various times ("After the characters deal with the guards ...") and many presume a Fight with the Main Bad Guy is the ultimate goal of play, and I often have to tie in NPCs who have no reason for existence other than to provide a hot fight.

I've found that early Traveller adventures are quite fun just because of what you've described here, Ron. In fact, in many ways they are better, since they have a revolutionary (for the time) attitude that NPCs ought to have good reason to be where they happen to be, doing what they happen to be doing, and frequently they make little-to-no assumptions as to how the players decide to deal with the situation.

[Blake Hutchins]

OTOH, I've got a book-length Traveller supplement from the early days that simply assumes players will make a decision to pursue the adventure -- at the very beginning, and y'know, the circumstances were neither intuitive nor particularly compelling.  My first group to play in that adventure looked at me like I was crazy for suggesting they go with the hapless Vargr they'd just met and break into a museum to rescue what he said was a sentimental trinket.  Knowing what I know now, I'd have spent a lot of time pre-game to help players create characters with hooks that would suck them into this thing.

The mini-encounters from early Traveller were always my favorites.

Best,

Blake

[Jürgen Mayer]

The absolute best was when the half orc decided to use the halfling as a weapon and throw him at a monster.

I ran an Orkworld adventure once, where the Orks had to rescue some of their fellow Orks from human slave traders. There was this midget who's job was to clean the dungeon where the Orks were caged. He was used as a throwing weapon, too, repeatedly.

Can I just mention that during the same adventure (and you need to know that in Orkworld, the mighty Elves can only be killed by weapons not from this world), they tried to strangle an Elf with a magical bridle. Half of the group died. We had tons of fun.