Grappling & Wrestling

[Jaif]

I've got a few questions about grappling and wrestling.  I'm probably just being dense, but:

1) What is grappling to trap?  The mechanic is clear, but what are you talking about in real life?

2) I don't get defensive grappling in general.  If a spearman thrusts at my grappler, and I choose 'grapple to throw' (or hold, or pin) as a response, are we doing two different attacks?  Or do we compare successes and establish a margin?  Assume we're at spear length, does the defensive grappler suffer a range penalty?

3) When wrestlers hit the ground, do their combat pools drop to 1/3? (aside: according to the rules on the first page of the appendix, it's 1/3 for being on the ground.  For hook, it's 1/2)

When wrestlers hit the ground...Both contestants then divide their Combat Pool...into offense and defense.  Any dice not allotted to one category or the other are lost.

...big snip...

Small weapons (including punches and kicks) may be used by any free character out of the Wrestling Combat Pool. Any such attacks are made after the two contests are rolled with remaining dice from the original pool.

4) Aren't the two bolded parts in conflict? One says that you divide the pool completely, and the other says that you use remaining dice.

-Jeff

[Jake Norwood]

I've got a few questions about grappling and wrestling.  I'm probably just being dense, but:

1) What is grappling to trap?  The mechanic is clear, but what are you talking about in real life?

2) I don't get defensive grappling in general.  If a spearman thrusts at my grappler, and I choose 'grapple to throw' (or hold, or pin) as a response, are we doing two different attacks?  Or do we compare successes and establish a margin?  Assume we're at spear length, does the defensive grappler suffer a range penalty?

3) When wrestlers hit the ground, do their combat pools drop to 1/3? (aside: according to the rules on the first page of the appendix, it's 1/3 for being on the ground.  For hook, it's 1/2)

When wrestlers hit the ground...Both contestants then divide their Combat Pool...into offense and defense.  Any dice not allotted to one category or the other are lost.

...big snip...

Small weapons (including punches and kicks) may be used by any free character out of the Wrestling Combat Pool. Any such attacks are made after the two contests are rolled with remaining dice from the original pool.

4) Aren't the two bolded parts in conflict? One says that you divide the pool completely, and the other says that you use remaining dice.

-Jeff

1) Grappling to trap, or "Ringen" is when you lock up a joint or weapon, immobilizing part of your opponent for a wee bit.
2) Use the margin on your defense to determine the effects of the throw. "Defensive Grappling" is really all about redirecting their energy, or coming in tight when they're extended from an attack.
3) the 1/3 CP drop refers to you being on the ground and fighting a guy that's not. If you're both on the ground and using the Wrestling Prof, go with that in its fullness.
4)Yeah, I see what you mean. Those dice are lost unless you're using them for another weapon. That's probably the best way to do it.

[Jaif]

Thanks for all the answers.  One question you missed: are there range penalties for any of the three defensive grapples?  Range penalties are specifically for the attack on shorter weapons, and the grappling, though short, is defensive.

It seems to me that grappling to throw is the ultimate way to get around range penalties, and almost as good a defense as a shield.  Consider the case for a typical swordsman (many kinds):

a) You parry with X dice at 6s.  If you win, you get initiative.

b) You grapple with X-2 dice at 6s.  If you win, you get initiative, hurt your opponent, and toss him to the ground.

Being on the ground is almost the end of the fight.

-Jeff

Edit: I'm happy to hear that trapping is what I thought.  Now I know what to say to all the endless "I grab his spear" actions that I've heard in the past. :-)

[Lyrax]

Gaining initiative can also be the end of the fight.

[Lance D. Allen]

Edit: I'm happy to hear that trapping is what I thought. Now I know what to say to all the endless "I grab his spear" actions that I've heard in the past. :-)

Which brings back my own question. A large part of the reason I created my first character with an arming glove is the ability to grab an opponent's weapon, whether bladed or not. If this is not covered under grappling to trap, how would it be handled? I don't necessarily mean yanking the weapon out of your opponent's hand (though that, too) but just grabbing the weapon and hanging on will put a major kink in your opponent's ability to fight you.

Okay, so to clarify.. How do you handle grabbing weapons?

Suggestion: Defensive or offensive action, requiring an attack or parry, but it will be -vs- the DTN of the opponent's weapon (I chose this number because, generally, the larger the weapon, the higher the DTN, and generally the larger weapons would be harder to grab). If you succeed, your opponent takes a penalty in CP equal to your margin of success (or maybe ST+successes-their ST.. I'd have to play with it a few times to be sure how to work it)

Suggestion: Yanking the weapon out of their hand - once you've successfully grabbed the weapon, you can attempt to jerk the weapon from their hand by rolling an attack against the weapon's DTN. Add ST to any successes. They can defend by rolling against the weapon's DTN as well, and adding their own ST. Whoever's result is higher is the winner of the contest, and the weapon is either retained or it is not. If a tie, the grabber keeps initiative, but the defender keeps his weapon, same as an attack tie.

Alternately, you can just attack, while still holding on to their weapon, which means that they still get the aforementioned penalty, and cannot use the weapon to parry.

This is a suggestion, and I will have to play with it a few times before I'm sure of it's value.. Anyone else is free to comment, of course.

[Stuart]

Hi All,

Glove or no, you can grab a bladed weapon. Even very sharp swords such as Kats can be grabbed. Providing the blade doesn't move in your grasp, you will be fine. It is best though to grab as close as you can to the hilt. Against  a thrust, a simple hand parry will often suffice.

Believe it or not, Swords and the like can even be grappled using the armpit!!

I shall explain with an example from single swordplay. This wouldn't work very well with Longswords, the distance is all wrong and the two handed grip is too strong.

Somebody is cutting at the left side of your neck from above and you are standing in a passata ward, (Sword low by side pointing at the opponent's weapon arm) you can either thrust at his arm and pass back as it comes in, (If you miss the thrust, his blade goes whistling by) or you can pass in and left adopting a guardant ward,(hilt high blade low) take the blow close to your hilt on the edge with a good hard stop and then snake your arm around his sword from the inside so that the sword is being held under the arm. (kinda like the way you carry a football). After catching his sword in this way, just yank upwards. If he has a simple hilt, the blade will pop nicely out of his hand. If he has a complex hilt, you might break a finger or a wrist. Great technique that drops jaws when it works.
Cheers
Stu.

[Brian Leybourne]

Believe it or not, Swords and the like can even be grappled using the armpit!!

Great technique that drops jaws when it works.

... or he yanks it back quickly and slices the hell out of your armpit...?

Brian.

[Stuart]

Hey Brian,

17th Century street clothes that consist of layers of heavy wool are difficult to cut via a slice. This technique works because the torque you are able to put on the weapon with your forearm is greater than his ability to pull the weapon from your grasp. This technique is very fast and is done in conjunction with the parry. His momentum is still in the cut when the sword is being popped out so the "popper" is a fencing time ahead of him.

My initial description of the armpit being used is a little off. The sword is under your arm but the forearm does most of the work. It is important to remember that western swords are not razor sharp like Katanas. The western short sword has more of a chisel edge as it has to deal with edge parries and hard armour that would shatter a lesser blade.
Cheers
Stu.