Buy The Numbers Extensions

[rhat]

Hi All,
I've been taking my first steps into RPG design by tweaking the "Buy The Numbers" rules (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=2909) to fit with some of the variant rules in WOTC's Unearthed Arcana. I've already come up with rules involving Spell-points, Gestalt Characters, and Negative Levels, but I've gotten hung up on something rather simple: race.

In regular D&D games, when you choose a race with a level adjustment, you take a pretend level or two in whatever race you chose, thereby adjusting the amount of XP you need to level up so as to keep the character balanced with everyone else. The rules for ""Buy the Numbers" never even make mention of racial level adjustments, or similar things (like Template-derived level adjustments).

Does anyone have any ideas on how to modify the basic "Buy the Numbers" rules to include these cases?

I've had people suggest buying entry into a race using a single big-blob of XP to get everything at once.

I'd like to work out a way to buy the race's abilities piece-meal (in keeping with the BtN mechanics), but it's hard to figure out values for some things. For example, how much does it cost to have the "Undead" creature-type? Could I buy a troll's regeneration without bothering with everything else?

Just curious,
-Ryan

PS: This is my first post, so feel free to "flame the n00b" if I've inadvertently misbehaved.

[Eero Tuovinen]

No flaming required, but your topic might not fit the forums as is. The assumption here in the game design forums of the Forge is that a project discussed here is intented for independent publication. Now, I can't tell if this is or is not the case here: are you working towards OGL compatibility? Is Unearthed Arcana even OGL (I think not)? Do you intend to publish the end result? Note that it doesn't need to be commercial publication, a web page somewhere is fine, too.

Anyway, you probably know the copyright status of your work better than we do, so you can determine yourself if this is a suitable topic for the forum. If this is just a quasi-legal hobby project, it's likely not suitable for this place. Not that those projects have anything wrong with them, mind you, and there are certainly many sites in the internets for discussing something like that.

[rhat]

To answer your questions:
1) Yes, BtN and UA are both OGL. BtN includes the notice on the last page, and the UA rules are in the WotC System Reference Document.
2) While I am developing these initially as "house rules"--mostly so my group can playtest them a bit--I have no problem with sticking them up on a website somewhere. Keep in mind though, that these really aren't a new game of any sort, merely a replacement set of rules for certain parts of another.I figured that rule-design was a legitimate part of game design, even if you're not making a whole new game.

Also, judging from the google results, I'm guessing that I'm one of (perhaps) 20 people who actually use "Buy the Numbers".

[Eero Tuovinen]

Actually, now that you mention it... I don't play D&D myself with any regularity, but my brother does, and I'm pretty sure that he's using that particular book in a campaign right now. At least he's told me about some extension rules set they're using that allows character point-buy or some such. Sounds exactly like that.

Anyway, to answer the original question without actually knowing any details of Buy the Numbers: my tack in pricing racial abilities would be to find classes that offer those same abilities. If Buy the Numbers allows you to price special abilities of classes, then you just need to know where the same ability is found in the class structure to price it, no? Isn't there even some sourcebook that gives monster HDs as level progressions, so monsters can be played as characters on lower levels as well? Savage Species or something like that?

Then again, I doubt that something like the undead type is actually situated reasonably in just any character class. If I'm not mistaken, it's a typical high-level capstone ability of several classes to turn the character into an undead, outsider or whatever non-human. This isn't so much because of the power of the undead type, but because it's such a drastic change thematically. The point of taking one of those necromancer classes is to document the character's journey from being human to being something else.

But that approach should work for something like regeneration, surely there's a character class somewhere that offers it. Or what do I know.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

This thread can work out fine in a couple of different ways.

1. If you're working on a game you'd like to publish yourself, then that's fine - the discussion can be right here. It's OK if you're using OGL rules to do it with, too.

2. If you're not designing your own game, and if you're talking about rules and rules-combinations specifically for purposes of play, then the best thing to do is to move all of this into the Actual Play forum. It'd be really good to round it out with an account of actual play experiences of yours which have led you to want to use Buy the Numbers.

As in, "we were playing, and then this happened, and it worked out this way, and so when I read Buy the Numbers it seemed as if it'd be very helpful in such situations, because of X, Y, and Z." That would be immensely useful and worthy of discussion in the Actual Play forum.

I'm pretty sure that #2 is the actual situation, so please let me know. If I'm right about that, and if you'd like, post an account like I described here as a reply. Then I can shift the thread to a happy new home in the Actual Play forum.

Best, Ron

[rhat]

You're right about this thread being about practical matters rather than strict game design. I would appreciate the thread migration.

As for an example of "Actual Play":
My players have had experience in a half dozen different games over several years, and they've always seemed to enjoy the ones with a good setting the most (helps them develop their characters, etc). While we've liked the mechanics from a lot of the game systems we've played, none have the same access to setting material as the present d20 version of D&D: Faerun, Iron Kingdoms, Dragonmech, Dark Sun, Planescape, and Ravenloft, just to name a few.

Now, as attracted as they are to the settings, they are equally repelled by the thought of only being another cookie-cutter character in such a setting. In their minds, the character creation and advancement mechanics used by D&D were both restrictive of their growth options, and unhelpful for character crafting. Seeing as they didn't have these problems when using other systems (such as WOD 1/2, or Nobilis), I thought that I'd go and take a look around for alternative mechanics resembling those from other systems.

My first try was using the alternate rules from UA, which provides d20-friendly alternative mechanics. Spell Points were a big win, and Gestalting helped to provide some flexibility. Unfortunately, the idea of always creating a character which is stuck doing two separate things was a bit artificial to them.

I found "Buy the Numbers" recently, and I like how their piece-meal buy system works, so I'm evaluating it for inclusion in my game.