Existing rules for emotional/internal conflict?

[Daztur]

A friend and I are working on an RPG that started out as a Fate mod but is slowly drifting into "well, it uses FUDGE dice" territory. I recently read the articles on Fantasy Heartbreakers on this site and they helped me can some Fate assumptions about what Fate points are that didn't fit the kind of game we're making. So I guess what I'd like is some advice that'd help me avoid making a Fate heartbreaker

What we're focusing a lot of our thinking on is having the core of the mechanics center around emotional/internal conflict, which hasn't been done very much in the RPGs that I've played. We're also working towards making a character sheet more of a Bang-generator than anything else. But of course there's hundreds of RPGs that I've never played, so I'd really like to avoid re-inventing the wheel. What kind of gaming currently on the market handle emotional/internal conflict well? I can't think of much off the top of my head aside from Pendragon, but I don't much like the way that that game does it. Is there any Forge theory already written that speaks to this kind of conflict? I'm enjoying reading through Forge theorizing, but there's so much of it I fell a bit swamped...

[Daztur]

hmmmm, no edit function so I guess I'll post this clarification as a reply. In the games I've seen personality mechanics are generally dealt with in the following ways:

A. Not at all.
B. You choose some kind of personality archetype and get negative affects if you deviate from it (old school D&D alignment)
C. You choose some kind of personality quirk and you get bonus points for character creation in return (GURPS)
D. You choose some kind of personality thingie and you get to be more awesome when acting in accordance with that personality thingie (Riddle of Steel, Fate, etc.)
E. You choose some kind of personality quirk and you get a bonus of some sort any time that personality quirk hinders you/creates complications (World of Darkness, Fate, Serenity)
F. The personality system is basically your mental hit points (Call of Cthulhu)

OK, those are all good for certain kinds of games but not what I'm looking for. What I want is one that focuses on how different aspects of a person's personality conflict with each other. Love vs. pride, honor vs. greed, etc. etc. Kind of mechanics for emo I guess

Is there anything else like that out there? I'd like to avoid re-inventing the wheel if possible and anything similar to what I have in mind would be great for inspiration.

[Simon C]

There's a LOT of reading ahead of you.  Answering your question is, in some ways, the major focus of a lot of the design that's come out of the Forge.  I'm sure you won't be suprised to hear that there are literally hundereds of games that each answer this question in a slightly different way.  Indeed, highlighting internal emotional conflicts is the game, as far as many designers are concerned.  So the issue is not so much about reinventing the wheel, but of joining a vast community of designers all doing the same thing, in slightly different ways.

Don't be disheartened! Don't think that just because there are so many other systems doing it, that you don't have something unique to offer.  But you have a fantastic opportunity, to see what other people have done, to learn, and to use that in your own design.  Here are some places to start:

Number One is "The Shadow of Yesterday".  Like your game, it uses Fudge dice, but it does so much more with them.  It's experience point system, "Keys" is exactly what you describe, an engine for driving internal emotional conflict.  Best of all, it's free to use and adapt.  Full text is available free and legal at: http://tsoy.crngames.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

Next I'd suggest reading the Actual Play forum here, and gleaning what you can about the games from what's mentioned.  Pay particular attention to Dogs in the Vineyard, My Life With Master, 1001 Nights, and anything that catches your interest.  Follow what's interesting to you, and learn as much as you can about those games.  PDFs are cheap, and if you have the money, the investment in even one of these games will be well worth your while for reading alone.

Another game that might take your fancy is the insanely popular "Spirit of the Century", a Fate mod which really puts the system to work, including some more focus on personality mechanics.  I think the text is available for free online, but I'm not sure where.

While you're reading free games, check out "The Pool" here: http://zork.net/~nick/loyhargil/thepool.html  it might not be exactly what you're after, but it could open your eyes to a few different ways of doing things.

That's a lot of reading, but I hope it's useful to you.  Good luck with your game, and check in to let us know how it's going.

[Simon C]

Sorry, also: Welcome to the Forge! 

[Daztur]

Yeah, while in rambling IM chats with my co-developer (having a co-developer really works wonders for making your final product more coherent, but damn is it time-consuming), I get the feeling that "damn the things we're thinking of are pretty intuitive, SOMEBODY has to have come up with something like this before." If that's the case, that's going to save me a loooooooooooooot of work, so I'm more relieved than disappointed

Of the games that you've listed I've heard of Dogs in the Vinyard and My Life With Master but haven't played them and I'm currently involved in a Spirit of the Century campaign. I love SotC silly but how personality mechanics works in it is basically if your personality causes complications you get a cookie/if your personality relates to what is happening you can spend the cookie to be more awesome. Very cool and streamlined system, but it doesn't really focus on internal conflict all that much (wouldn't fit the pulp flavor), the personality mechanics are basically based on rewarding players for staying true to their character without really exploring what that means and there's not much character development built into SotC.

I'll definately look at the games you suggested, especially Shadow of Yesteryear, much appreciated. The way my brain works, I suck at coming up with original ideas but I'm good at integrating ideas from different sources, so the more sources I have the better I do.

The basic idea we're stabbing around with goes something a little like this (bare bones):
1. Your character has a couple themes (love, honor, family, faith, whatever).
2. For each theme you have a related long term goal (fairly hard to change) and a short term goal (fairly easy to change). That function a bit like Burning Wheel beliefs.
3. For each theme you also have an aspect.
4. Each aspect is in one of four systems, each with appropriate symbolism (spring = renewal/hope, winter = grief/depravity, etc.).
5. As your character develops each aspect goes through the seasons (in a non-determinisitic way, most of the crunch we're wresting with is how to make this work properly, we're using internal conflict as the main means of pushing characters through the seasons) and in each of the seasons the aspect relates to the theme/long term goal in different ways.
6. The point is to represent literary themes of corruption and redemption, using seasons as a metaphor.

[Mikael]

If you search for TonyLB's posts on the Storygames forum, you should find several where he discusses internal vs. external conflicts, how to make them interesting etc.

Also, Shock has a something vs. something else mechanic that you might want to check out.

[Daztur]

OK, I've skimmed through a bunch of rules and actual plays and read through a stack of reviews. My knowledge the games that Mikael and Simon C is still very sketchy but here's what I'm thinking at the moment:

Shock: looks like all kinds of awesome, the way issues are set up is definatley something I can steal.

TonyLB's posts: seems like he thinks along the same lines as I do, am enjoying reading his posts.

The Pool: awesome little system, seems like it'd be perfect for a one-shot.

Dogs in the Vinyard/My Life With Master/1001: Good ideas in these, I'm especially liking what I'm reading about My LIfe With Master, specifically that not only do the personality mechanics influence gameplay but what happens in gameplay influence what your personality mechanics are. There don't seem to be many games out there in which personality mechanics are determined by much besides free player choice, so its good to see something different. However this trio of games seems (going by reviews/actual plays etc.) seem to have personality mechanics that are more deterministic than I would like. For what I'm thinking of, I think I'd much prefer something along the lines of SotC's fate point economy.

TSOY: Hmmm, maybe I'm missing something but I really don't see what all the fuss is about. The primary personality mechnic seems to be the keys and they don't seem to do much but turn D&D-style bonus xp for RPing up to 11.

[Simon C]

TSoY is a little hard to get without reading some actual play or playing the game itself.  The key differences between how it handles XP and a plain "bonus for roleplaying" are subtle, but very important.

Firstly, there's the buyoff.  When you act against a Key, you can choose to gain a bunch of XP, and lose the Key.  Rather than punishing you for playing against your chosen Keys, like alignment does in D20, TSoY rewards you, or rather, it gives you a choice.  The effect is to make each Key like a little story waiting to happen for the character - if you have "Key of Cowardice" your character is a coward, until the day he decides to stand up and fight.  It means that the player is always making choices about their character - are they still a coward?  Have they changed? When the character has several competing Keys, the choices become even harder, and can get at the kind of internal conflict you're after.  Do you follow one Key, or another?

Secondly, there's the fact that in TSoY, XP is spent right away, not between sessions.  That means that if you see an NPC you find interesting, you can take "Key of Unrequited Love" for that NPC straight away, and dramatically change the direction of the story.  Or you can be put in a position where buying off a Key is the only way to get enough experience points to bump a stat and win the fight.  Would you sacrifice your life's goal to win this fight?

[Daztur]

Ah ok, that makes more sense then. So changes in the personality mechanics is something that is built into the system not something that's just "well you can change an aspect if you really want and the GM lets you" like in Fate. Do like.