Damage system with gritty Realism

[ETP]

Hello, long time lurker, first time poster here,

Im working on a game system in which i want to move away from Hit Points.  The game deals with characters who are becoming immortal, and as such what matters to them isnt how many hit points they are at, but how much of their body is missing, how much it hurts and how dizzy all that blood loss is making them.  I want them to be racking up grievous wounds on their sheets, almost as badges of honor, while at the same time fearing becoming immobilized by the pain, or shock that they cause.

My primary source for inspiration at the moment in Blue Planet, first edition, which has wonderfully detailed hit location and damage effects tracking just how wrecked you are after injuries to areas like your jaw, eyes, or left foot.

Hopefully you have a some experience with similar systems that deal with the nitty gritty details like blood loss, shock, broken bones, pain threshhold, torn ligaments etc.

Any listing for further research and inspiration would be great. 

[Vulpinoid]

How rules light or heavy do you want the system to be?

Is it going to simulate every hit, including immediate impact on the victim as well as medium and long term effects?

Is it going to be quick and dirty, covering the abstract results of penalties caused?

Just wondering for the purposes of a jump point for discussion...

V

[Moreno R.]

Hi!

(sorry, but what is your name? Here at the Forge there is the custom of using our real first names, in the signature if you prefere to use a more colorful nickname, to allow others to adress us by name)

Reading you post I thought of the game Harnmaster It has many of the things you asked for: very detailed location tables (different for different kinds of hits and different points of aim), very gritty treatment of wounds (it's easier to die from gangrene or after a battle that during it), and there is no "hit points", any wounds is described and written on the character sheet with the effect it has (and it has to heal in a separate way from every other wound, not in a common pool). If you are interested I thing you would prefere the "harnmaster gold" variery, that you can find here (the other version, "Harnmaster III" from Columbia games is simplified and lose something of what you are searching for)

This is, I thing, the game that most has what you were searching for in terms of techniques (hit location tables, detailed "to hit" routine, wounds described as "blood loss, shock, broken bones, pain threshhold, torn ligaments " etc.), but I would advise you to look for different answers, too, and not thinking that that is the only way to achieve the effect that you want.  Why don't you describe in more detail the kind of game you want to create (not only in mechanical terms, but in the kind of experience you want to create, what woould be the onjective of the players during the game, etc.) to get some different suggestion?

[ETP]

Hey, thanks for the replies so far, my name is Jon btw,

Right now im just looking for research material, anything that you would feel adds a realistic touch to combat.  In particular im looking for descriptive wounds and their effects.  However any sources from incredibly detailed and complicated, to a more abstract (but still tinged with a sense of real injury) will suffice.  After all im not looking yet for that ONE perfect system, just looking to pick up and read from a number of sources to get more perspective on it.

[ETP]

Ah i believe i forgot to mention that the game im working on takes place in Modern Times.  That shouldnt stop anyone from posting fantasy or sci fi rules (im looking at harnmaster now and its pretty great, full of good ideas) but anything dealing with modern weaponry will be a particular treat for me.

[contracycle]

There is in fact quite a lot of data about this dating from approximately the WW2 and Vietnam eras.  I once crunched a lot of this data starting from muzzle velocity and projectile diameter, but I'm not sure the results are a whole lot different than what you get from simple intuition.

A google search on "wound ballistics" should set you in the right direction.  However it's worth noting that for such an apparently objective topic there is an awful lot of disagreement dating back to discussions about whether NATO should adopt the 5.56mm projectile that has since become standard or stay with the 7.62mm that was commonplace in WW2.   Again, how much difference it REALLY makes is open to some doubt; for example there is no solid agreement on whether the phenomenon of "keyholing" really exists.

[ETP]

just curious if those are all the rpgs that you guys have in mind with this kind of simulationist sort of damage system?

[Moreno R.]

Hi Jon!

I dropped out of this thread because I have not a lot of experience with ultra-detailed modern-setting rpgs (it's strange, but the nearer I got to a modern-time setting, the less interested I got to details. In my middle age campaigns I though a lot about how to show the difference between a specific polearm and another, while in a modern setting I played more like "a gun is a gun, no matter the kind", And that was a long time ago, now I really prefere simpler systems), so I have not a lot to tell you.  I heard much about the attention to details in CORPS, but I never played it

I think that if you are more interested in the description of the "realistic" effects of conflict, you would be better served checking real-world data, and not game books.

[dindenver]

Hi!
  BTRC did some great research on firearms and wounds and compiled it into an awesome supplement called Guns! Guns! Guns! Check it out.
  Also, CP2020 is based on some FBI research. They quoted in there that the average gunfight investigated by the FBI takes place at 21 ft apart and that 81% of the time someone goes don't on the first successful hit.
  If you want to mimic pain/shock in a more streamlined way, check out Shadow of Yesterday. There is a free version on the web and the rules are simple, but can be deadly depending on the stats you assign to weapons/armor.
  Of course the old Top Secret 1st edition had decent wound table, but I dunno if you can get your hands on it or not.
  Those are the only games/supplements that I know of that treats wounds in some sort of detail.
  Good luck man!

[Latigo]

Take a look at anything by Tri-Tac such as Stalking the Night Fantastic.  This is an incredibly detailed system for damage to the human body and it ONLY applies to PCs.  If you want to know "how deep the stab went through how much skin, muscle, bone, and organ, what the blood loss and chance of sudden death from shock are" then boy, this is a place to start.

Interestingly, NPCs are killed with a "fast kill" chart...the suffering is saved for the PCs!

If it's any indication, the folks at Tri-Tac were the ones behind The Morrow Project (another game with an extensive damage / wound / blood loss system)

The effect of such a brutal system in play is interesting, as it is so gristly that my experience is players quickly learn to steer clear of violence unless it's absolutely necessary.  Not what you expect from a game with pages of guns...

All the best,

Pete

[daeruin]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned The Riddle of Steel yet. It's got one of the most realistic, gritty combat systems out there. It's a fantasy game, but it's got exactly what you are looking for. Each hit causes a real wound, which is measured by Blood Loss, Shock, and Pain, and potentially Knockdown or Knockout depending on hit location and severity.

[masqueradeball]

Friday Night Firefight! The combat system for Cyberpunk 2020, though not location-oriented, is based of of FBI gathered statistics... it might help you with some inspiration.