[ASCII @HACK] One-Shot Gear

[David Artman]

I am developing a roguelike RPG simulator which balances somewhat-freeform character creation and situation generation against a die rank and success-counting system, with the aim of playing out any genre or style of classic ASCII adventure games:
ASCII @HACK (short: about six screens of well-spaced HTML)

At the moment, Gear has die ranks (d4, d6, ... d20) and there is an increasing Token cost associated with each rank. However, many items in roguelike games are single-use. Not like "potions of healing"--restoration and repair is done within the Token economy. Rather, something like a "Scroll of Recall" (return to Home, if in dungeon; return to last point in dungeon, if Home). Basically, I can't get my head around how to price single-use, non-quantitative (i.e binary) effects. Even if not single-use (i.e. Teleport as Trait), I can't figure out how to value something which doesn't require a die type or rolls for successes.

Help me figure out a way to cost such Elements--ideally, a "meta-cost" methodology rather than a laundry list of brainstormed functions with flat Token costs.

Brainstorm, spitball, build a meta-costing method--I'll take any help y'all can give. I've been stuck on this (probably last) game element for quite a while.
Thanks!
David

[Darcy Burgess]

Hi David,

I'm trying to understand what you're asking, specifically the "...how to price single-use, non-quantitative (i.e. binary) effects." bit (emphasis mine).

How 'bout this: does Godlike's Talent costing system qualify under your criteria?

I'm not suggesting it per se.  Rather, I'm trying to cotton on to what you're asking.

Cheers,
D

[JoyWriter]

Here's my take on unification: Presumably those dice compare to some value, or they simply add up to complete a condition. In either case, they have an average number of tries required to produce success, and that success has a value in itself. Now a one use items valuation depends on a number of things, but you can decide on comparative valuations of continuous items by two criteria:
1 Which would you choose, which would someone else choose?
If you adjust the costs so that you can no longer decide which is better when you get to a shop, then presumably the purpose of a cost based system is complete. This way of finding the right cost is to just keep playing with other people and fiddle the costs up and down until you can't decide. This is how the warhammer games are balanced and it takes a long time.
2 Abstract value
Compare them by success at defined jobs, tied both to the basic objectives of the game and other random ones. For a set of n tries, how many successes will you get for each one, and how big a %age of overall success are they? If you cost the big successes by the dice you already have, then you can work back to the binary items. There is a snag where one item can be used to produce multiple functions, but as it can presumably only do one at once you can just compare it to both. This method is faster when you really understand the game and fails utterly when you don't. It's the classic analytical/iterative split, I suggest you do both.

The one-shot vs continuous item is the same choice as whether you should rent an object or buy one, and although the existence of loans makes that choice a little easier in real life, you can look at real world economics to get some ideas.

I hope you get unstuck soon!

[Falc]

At the moment, Gear has die ranks (d4, d6, ... d20) and there is an increasing Token cost associated with each rank. However, many items in roguelike games are single-use. Not like "potions of healing"--restoration and repair is done within the Token economy. Rather, something like a "Scroll of Recall" (return to Home, if in dungeon; return to last point in dungeon, if Home). Basically, I can't get my head around how to price single-use, non-quantitative (i.e binary) effects. Even if not single-use (i.e. Teleport as Trait), I can't figure out how to value something which doesn't require a die type or rolls for successes.

A Scroll of Recall does have a 'die roll' cost: it replaces all the die rolls you'd need to make if you were to walk back home and then come back to the same point in the dungeon. Of course, you then run into the problem that this 'cost' becomes higher the further you get into the dungeon.

Actually... The real 'cost' will be related to the reason why someone feels the need to return Home. If I need to go Home to buy some lockpicks because I'm in front of a locked door and I didn't bring any picks, then the 'cost' of the recall will also depend on the difference in difficulty between opening the door with and without lockpicks.

Of course, you could argue that this doesn't solve the 'one-time' issue. But that one's very tricky. You have objects with unlimited uses, and others with a limited amount of uses (be it 1 or 10 or whatever). The real issue lies in the fact that, as long as your uses don't run out, there's no difference in in-game power. If I have a lockpicks that breaks after 10 uses, but I only ever need to pick 5 locks, then it's no different from a lockpick that never breaks. So in other words, buying an unbreakable lockpick and paying more than for a lockpick with 10 uses means that I'm betting on facing at least 11 locks. If you could work out in advance the odds of this, you could make a real price, but in an RPG you can't. In real life, you can make reasoned assumptions based on past experiences (which is how insurances figure out how much money you should pay), but in an RPG past experiences mean nothing since it's all created by someone with specific goals in mind.

So, erm, in conclusion of this brainstorm... I think you'll need to wing it. Think about hidden costs, dice rolls that are avoided, things like that. But at some point, you'll need to add or subtract arbitrary numbers. My advice then would be to err on the cheap side, because it'll ba whole lot more obvious if you got it wrong. If everyone buys 5 unbreakable lockpicks just in case they ever lose one or whatever, then they're too cheap (and you can then invoke the law of supply and demand to jack up the price). If no-one buys any, then it's harder to know whether they just don't think they'll need them, or because they're too expensive.

[dindenver]

Dave,
  OK, this is one area where I have some good advice.

  If you are creating a system where you have to value an ability as compared top another ability, there is a great method I use. I come up with a couple of criteria and rate the ability on its "power" to perform that function. Usually, the functions I focus on are pseudo-story powers, like:
- Physical obstacle immunity (a great ability that applies here is flight, if you fly high enough, almost every physical obstacle can be overcome)
- Mental obstacle (mind reading is a good one to show mental obstacle immunity)
- Social obstacle (shape shifting is a good example here)
- Genre appropriateness (Usually I add a tag for this, I put a low value for abilities I want to be common or that are a "cool" part of the setting or genre and a high value on things that are only a borderline example of the setting/genre)

  These are just examples, but I think its a good framework to go back with and determine how many tokens certain items should cost in your game. You might even want to use it on die-rated items, since a d20 in potion of healing might have a different value than a d20 in wand of fireball, you know?
  Anyways, keep me posted on your game, I look forward to helping however I can.

[David Artman]

Woah, thanks everyone! I have been sick (and, as a result, busy at work) and just now have had a chance to look over the replies. I'll address them generally, rather than explode this narrow thread with direct quotes and their inevitable tangents.

First, the overarching issue to consider is that 99% of effects in the game are as follows:
* A player roll a die type based on the "rank" of a given piece of applicable Gear or due to a Talent. If it rolls 4+, it counts as a Success.
* Net Successes gives the victor the right to reduce the loser's Talents or Gear by one die type per Success.
* Adventurer spends Tokens to restore damaged Gear, "heal" reduced Talents, or "find" new Gear, or "learn" new and better Talents.

So, into that I want to insert effects which logically would not have a die rank, would not roll for Successes, and (thus) are not quantifiable but rather are binary (on or off; activated or not). Compare:
* Big Bastard Sword: d10 - 70% chance of generating a Success in Combat, if I can narrate it without objections (and at Near range).
* Scroll of Recall... uh, no die needed. Takes me either Home or back to Zone in which I last used it.

See the difference? I can (eventually) balance the cost v chance of Success for things with die types. But I can't even figure a base cost for things like that Scroll.

-----
Some specifics:
* (Darcy) Godlike Talents don't compare; think more of DitV Traits, without the See and Raise poker flavor, but rather with a count-Successes mechanic.

* (Joy) I think I follow most of what you posted, and I do wish to use iteration. But I need an initial value to test against and refine, no? (Maybe I missed something in your point?)

* (Falc) Number of uses is another axis, orthogonal to the "value" or cost axis. If it makes brainstorming easier, presume every effect is multi-use, NOT single-use (i.e. forget that issue for now).

* (Falc) Home is only good for making Quest Zones (i.e. the Adventurer may define some stuff, for a larger reward, but pays for it too). Basically, forget about Scroll of Recall--it was but a single example of a non-qualitative, binary effect (i.e. it works every time, does only one thing). (This makes moot the lockpick notion: an Adventurer could just "find" a lockpick by spending the right number of Coins--but, in actuality, a "locked" container or portal is merely a simple or logical puzzle; see rules link above). Of course, instantly returning Home to escape certain death at the hands of a monster is a fairly hefty bennie, too!

* (Dave) Interesting way to look at it, and sort of like what Falc said viz a viz the Recall skipping Zones thing. But you should see, now, how there's no "potion of healing" (my example in the rules--now gone--notwithstanding). Gear or Talents fuel Successes. These other "Device" Elements Just Do Something that's outside of the normal Successes-based resolution system.

-----
More thoughts:
Maybe the hidden-bid resolution system for objections could run ALL of these Device-like effects? Which would also keep it a "meta" system rather than a laundry list of effects and Token costs.

The Adventurer narrates, "I find a Recall Stone! [This better-implies permanence, not a one-off effect like a scroll.] One Token..." then the Opposition replies "Nope, here's my counter-Token; it goes to bids" and then everyone does the blind bid. It means that the Adventurer REALLY must want the effect Device (or none of the Opposition really cares if he or she has it), to get it. Thus (Joy?) the cost would be Whatever It's Worth at that moment.

Thanks again, everyone. Am I making a bit more sense, now; any new ideas?
David

[David Artman]

Woah, thanks everyone! I have been sick (and, as a result, busy at work) and just now have had a chance to look over the replies. I'll address them generally, rather than explode this narrow thread with direct quotes and their inevitable tangents.

First, the overarching issue to consider is that 99% of effects in the game are as follows:
* A player roll a die type based on the "rank" of a given piece of applicable Gear or due to a Talent. If it rolls 4+, it counts as a Success.
* Net Successes gives the victor the right to reduce the loser's Talents or Gear by one die type per Success.
* Adventurer spends Tokens to restore damaged Gear, "heal" reduced Talents, or "find" new Gear, or "learn" new and better Talents.

So, into that I want to insert effects which logically would not have a die rank, would not roll for Successes, and (thus) are not quantifiable but rather are binary (on or off; activated or not). Compare:
* Big Bastard Sword: d10 - 70% chance of generating a Success in Combat, if I can narrate it without objections (and at Near range).
* Scroll of Recall... uh, no die needed. Takes me either Home or back to Zone in which I last used it.

See the difference? I can (eventually) balance the cost v chance of Success for things with die types. But I can't even figure a base cost for things like that Scroll.

-----
Some specifics:
* (Darcy) Godlike Talents don't compare; think more of DitV Traits, without the See and Raise poker flavor, but rather with a count-Successes mechanic.

* (Joy) I think I follow most of what you posted, and I do wish to use iteration. But I need an initial value to test against and refine, no? (Maybe I missed something in your point?)

* (Falc) Number of uses is another axis, orthogonal to the "value" or cost axis. If it makes brainstorming easier, presume every effect is multi-use, NOT single-use (i.e. forget that issue for now).

* (Falc) Home is only good for making Quest Zones (i.e. the Adventurer may define some stuff, for a larger reward, but pays for it too). Basically, forget about Scroll of Recall--it was but a single example of a non-qualitative, binary effect (i.e. it works every time, does only one thing). (This makes moot the lockpick notion: an Adventurer could just "find" a lockpick by spending the right number of Coins--but, in actuality, a "locked" container or portal is merely a simple or logical puzzle; see rules link above). Of course, instantly returning Home to escape certain death at the hands of a monster is a fairly hefty bennie, too!

* (Dave) Interesting way to look at it, and sort of like what Falc said viz a viz the Recall skipping Zones thing. But you should see, now, how there's no "potion of healing" (my example in the rules--now gone--notwithstanding). Gear or Talents fuel Successes. These other "Device" Elements Just Do Something that's outside of the normal Successes-based resolution system.

-----
More thoughts:
Maybe the hidden-bid resolution system for objections could run ALL of these Device-like effects? Which would also keep it a "meta" system rather than a laundry list of effects and Token costs.

The Adventurer narrates, "I find a Recall Stone! [This better-implies permanence, not a one-off effect like a scroll.] One Token..." then the Opposition replies "Nope, here's my counter-Token; it goes to bids" and then everyone does the blind bid. It means that the Adventurer REALLY must want the effect Device (or none of the Opposition really cares if he or she has it), to get it. Thus (Joy?) the cost would be Whatever It's Worth at that moment.

Thanks again, everyone. Am I making a bit more sense, now; any new ideas?
David

[David Artman]

By the way, could you folks PM me with your full real names, if you want credit in the final book?