RPG in New York, 1877

[Petter]

My first post here!

I´m writing a supplement for the Swedish RPG Western. It´s set in New York, around 1877. I will probably focus mainly on money, power and crime. The book should be around 200 pages. Kind of a Gangs of New York RPG (but set 35 years later).

Any recommendation on what other games I should look at? Any other New York based games or games focusing on pick pockets, bank robbers, prostition, poverty, gangs, police and corruption?

All the best,

Petter in Malmoe, South Sweden

[Petter]

Well, perhaps I need to be a bit more specific:

Money - not only how to get a lot, but also what it means socialy and from a more game mechanic point of view. Money changes contacts with others. How should I put that in figures?
Pick pockets - I´m thinking of making this to some kind of card (or dice) duel in steps. It should be something between the pick pocket and his/her victim, not just a simple success/failure skill challenge. This is, I think, both more realstic and playable.
Bank robbers - the same idea here: not just a simple skill, but more a chain of events. And perhaps skills. Still: it must be playable.
Prostitution - not a pleasant subject, but couldn´t it be intersting from a playing point of view? It´s a work with a lot of contacts and secrets. And it´s also often dangerous. I actually picture and entire campaign with only prostitute characters...
Poverty - must also be playable, you allways have motives to act: you have no money, no food, you need warm clothes and a work. Could this be summed up?
Corruption - both advantages and disadvantages, nice from the beginning, but suddenly you are hooked up in dangerous relations. Impossible to get out? Very playable! In NYC 1875 very much a police issue.

Generally, I´m intersted in putting Pyrrhic victories into game mechanics. To me, this seems like a good way to avoid power gaming. For example, if you choose to be a criminal, you will perhaps get more money, but you will also have enemies hunting you. Perhaps it should be possible to "buy" success with some kind of disadvantages.

What´s your thoughts on this?

[chronoplasm]

I can't say I'm familiar with Western RPG. All my google searches are only turning up various RPGs in western settings.
If you could describe how Western RPG works, that might help. What are your favorite aspects of this game? What do you want to carry over? Is it just the setting you want to change or is there anything else you want to expand on?

[Petter]

Ah, you are right. For your knowledge: the Swedish Western RPG is a traditional BRP game in a traditional Western setting. It´s gun fights, indians, saloons and gold diggers. Most of the stuff published is quite historicly correct.

The New York supplement is supposed to give the game a new, more urban flavor. NYC was quite big already in 1877 with street cars, telephones and big factories. I will be able to add quite many new rules, specific for the local setting, but still within the BRP frames. Most of it should be about the urban details I´ve already mentioned.

[Teramis]

Hi, Petter,

I have a comment and a question for you. While it is true that New York was the most populous city in America at that time, it was not really a "western" city at all. Rather, it epitomized the "civilized" qualities valued in European culture at that time, although of course it also had a large seedy underside and criminal element.  Relative to other American cities, it looked towards Europe as its cultural role model. People from New York were often considered citified dandies or folks with pretentious sensibilities when they came out west.  Is your objective to capture urban life as typified in New York because it is New York, or urban life as typified in a large and populous *western* city, given that this supplement is for the "West" game?

I don't know if you can change the stated objective of this supplement, but if your goal is the latter, then you might want to consider using the setting of San Francisco instead. All the urban issues you touch upon were in play there as well,  but the city is better suited than New York for a game with Western overtones.   In 1870 it was the 10th most populous city in the country (pop 147,473), during that decade was in a growth boom fed by the silver strikes in the mining town of Virginia City, Nevada, and by 1880 had grown to be 9th largest city (pop 233,959) in the nation.   The top ten cities of the closest census year to your target date (1880) were, in order, New York, Philadelphia, Brooklyn, Chicago, Boston, St. Louis, Baltimore, Cincinnati, San Francisco, and New Orleans.  Of these, only San Fran can really be considered the prototypical booming metropolis in the west.  St. Louis was called 'the gateway to the west', but mainly because it was distinguished as being the jumping-off point for people leaving the east and heading west across country. The other cities are not in the mainstream of western culture per se, except insofar as they existed and flourished at the same time the American West was happening as an iconic era.

Don't know if that's relevant to the strategic decision about your setting, but I thought it worth mentioning.
Census figures come from U.S. government Census Bureau data here: http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0027.html.

-Teramis

[Petter]

I have a comment and a question for you. While it is true that New York was the most populous city in America at that time, it was not really a "western" city at all. Rather, it epitomized the "civilized" qualities valued in European culture at that time, although of course it also had a large seedy underside and criminal element.  Relative to other American cities, it looked towards Europe as its cultural role model. People from New York were often considered citified dandies or folks with pretentious sensibilities when they came out west.  Is your objective to capture urban life as typified in New York because it is New York, or urban life as typified in a large and populous *western* city, given that this supplement is for the "West" game?

Well, I understand that a Western RPG followed by a NYC supplement might sound even more strange to Americans than to Europeans (I actually suggested my publishers to change the entire name of the game to "America 1877"). But the main idea is to focus on New York in specific, not a big Western city. Other places (like Deadwood, Arizona and New York) will be covered in other supplements, written by others. San Fransisco might actually be a later topic.

So, basicly I´m looking for the New York ruled by the Astors, the Vanderbilts, the Five Point Gangs and PT Barnum. It´s very (non Western) urban setting. I´ve already done some thousand pages of research, and also visiting NYC irl just a week ago.

Anyhow, Teramis, thanks for your respons!

/Petter

[Jason Morningstar]

Hey Petter, your proposed setting is near and dear to my heart.  It sounds like you are writing a detailed setting book for Western rather than a new game, is that accurate?  You mentioned new rules, which would obviously be the area where this forum might be useful to you.  What do you think needs to be changed from the core rules in Western, and why? 

[Petter]

Hey Petter, your proposed setting is near and dear to my heart.  It sounds like you are writing a detailed setting book for Western rather than a new game, is that accurate?  You mentioned new rules, which would obviously be the area where this forum might be useful to you.  What do you think needs to be changed from the core rules in Western, and why? 

Yes, I´m writing a detailed setting book for Western RPG, not a new game. And yes, I´d like to add rules to the existing game. The main reason is: Western RPG is mainly a cowboy and indians game (roughly), but my book is not such a thing. And I would also like to add a not so traditional BRP flavor to my extra rules. Perhaps some narrativism, or maybe just rules in a style fresh to a Swedish audience.

[Jason Morningstar]

Are you envisioning stand-alone subsystems, then?  Like a pickpocket mini-game?  It sounds like some sort of progressive skill challenge system could be applied to a variety of tasks (assuming this does not exist in Western).  The skill challenge rules in D&D fourth edition are pretty well done and might be worth a look, if this is the direction you are heading.

[Petter]

Are you envisioning stand-alone subsystems, then?  Like a pickpocket mini-game?  It sounds like some sort of progressive skill challenge system could be applied to a variety of tasks (assuming this does not exist in Western).  The skill challenge rules in D&D fourth edition are pretty well done and might be worth a look, if this is the direction you are heading.

Well, I think I´m actually looking for several stand-alone subsystems. Pickpocketing is one of many details that I want to make more playable than just rolling the dies once for success or not success. I guess I want to make it more realistic, real pickpocketing is about a lot of tactics and it´s made in steps (finding a victim, distracting, sneaking, run away, getting paid - think Fagin and Oliver Twist).

Corruption is another topic that I want to do develop from a rule mechanic point of view. It´s something that means a lot of demanding contacts, threats and, of course, a possible income. A corrupted character allways have motivations to act. And corruption is very NYC 1877.

[Jason Morningstar]

OK, here's a few questions:

In what ways is a very focused mechanic (pickpocketing) a better choice than a less focused one (manipulating suckers, which could include picking pockets through short cons like rolling johns in brum cribs all the way to the wire and other big cons - all identical in intent but different in procedure and scope)? 

How do you envision corruption working?  Are you interested in other games that elegantly model social interaction as design touch-stones? 

[matthijs]

What's the publishing model like? Is this an indie supplement for an indie game, an indie supplement for someone else's game...?