[Forgotten Tales] Power 19 and feedback request

[imago]

This is my Power 19 for a new idea I've been working on the last days. I really need feedback on the effects of lack of advancement (12 and 13), and better defined things for characters to do (2). Of course, feedback on other points of the Power 19 is very appreciated, beforehand.

And do I need a title that fits better? Untold Tales, perhaps?

Forgotten Tales is heavily influenced by the Fables comic and strongly influenced by Vincent Baker's Otherkind.


1.) What is your game about?**

Forgotten Tales is about Tales that live among humans, in our ordinary world. Tales are the embodiment of a fairy tale that we have stopped telling, which forced them to leave their realm to come to the Mundane, expecting both to fulfill their Stories and escape dreadful Oblivion. On the Mundane, things work a bit different from what Tales know, who must rely on Notoriety now to Succeed. It's a game of how much power a Tale can wield and the price to pay for it – on the Mundane, everything is more serious, seriousness that comes as a Shadow; it's a game when controlling Narration equals to control the World.

Who tells whose Story?


2.) What do the characters do?**

Characters try to live their Stories, which Aspects lead them to certain conflicts. Also, since characters have Vows to some Harbinger (name for those Tales who crossed first the Portals to the Mundane), they might pay service to stay on the Mundane. Besides, Tales cause Notoriety to go up and down, which can lead both to Weird and Oblivion manifesting and Tales know those phenomena must be kept in check, specially if there are Chimera involved.


3.) What do the players (including the GM if there is one) do?**

Players take the role of one Tale, each. Since the system makes all players gamble to control Narration, among other things, they'll have to narrate the result of some actions.
GM manages NPCs, proposes a story, challenges PCs and tries to take control of Narration off the other players by spending Weird. From another viewpoint, GM's job is to provide situations that make players care enough about to affect Notoriety, even though this leads to Weird and Oblivion.


4.) How does your setting (or lack thereof) reinforce what your game is about?

Since setting is intentionally mundane while immensely affected by Tales, it reinforces the fact that they are something else, a Narrative Power. Oblivion and Weird coming are both reactions to their presence and their very existence, as well as enforcing the fact that the Mundane is not part of PC's Story, so they'll have to make it so.


5.) How does the Character Creation of your game reinforce what your game is about?

There is a clear distinction between Mundane and Story traits (Essences, Vow, Flaw, Shadow and Themes), giving special attention to the latter. Flaw and Vow are chosen by the player, while Shadow is chosen by another, non-GM player (unless it's a solo game), bringing home the point that being on the Mundane changed Tales.


6.) What types of behaviors/styles of play does your game reward (and punish if necessary)?

It rewards players controlling Narration, in spite of Success, not only because of the immediate benefit of narrating things player's way but allowing them to control weather Notoriety will go up in case they Succeeded or choosing whether Oblivion or Weird go up when Notoriety is high enough.
Besides, it's a great way to bring Story Aspects on play, which is also rewarded.


7.) How are behaviors and styles of play rewarded or punished in your game?

Essences are both Effectiveness and "Hitpoints"; bringing Themes on play allows to regain uses for those Aspects.
Flaws and Shadow lessen Notoriety, avoiding the risk of Weird or Oblivion. Shadow also resets Oblivion when brought on play.
Controlling Narration allows players to get a Mundane Success, which doesn't add to Notoriety, without resorting to limited-use Mundane traits.


8.) How are the responsibilities of narration and credibility divided in your game?

If no player opposes, GM is responsible of narration and credibility. When Tales act, resolution might hand Narration and credibility over to players.


9.) What does your game do to command the players' attention, engagement, and participation? (i.e. What does the game do to make them care?)

Players, on an average roll, choose whether their characters Succeed, lose something because of their actions and affect the gameworld and narration itself, even taking control of the latter. Only players can make things easier for them, investing on raising Notoriety.


10.) What are the resolution mechanics of your game like?

Player declares intent, picks Essence or Mundane Trait if applicable and rolls 3d6, player chooses (after the roll) one for Narration, one for Success and one for Integrity; players can get an additional die by spending an Essence dot. Rolling under or equal to Integrity is good – the effect depends on the die:
Narration – player has narration rights and can narrate a Success as Mundane, which doesn't add to Notoriety. In case of fail, GM gets to narrate.
Success – player intent is successful. If player picked an Essence, the Success is Bright and adds 1 to Notoriety, unless is Narrated as Mundane; GM always narrates a success as Bright if possible.
Integrity – PC doesn't lose Essence, spend Mundane Trait nor gains Oblivion. In case of fail apply Essence or Mundane loss or add to Oblivion.


11.) How do the resolution mechanics reinforce what your game is about?

They're about narrative power and what is gambled to get it.


12.) Do characters in your game advance? If so, how?

I think characters should only advance on the Mundane traits, but I'm still unsure of this – it will be a setting-based decision (currently, Harbingers should have more dots on Mundane than the rest of Tales, not only PCs)


13.) How does the character advancement (or lack thereof) reinforce what your game is about?

Tales aren't people. They don't evolve like humans do, they try to fulfill.


14.) What sort of product or effect do you want your game to produce in or for the players?

The feeling that they are Tales, that controlling Narration/Success is not a metafiction  or metagame process but the fiction, game and characters themselves. This game doesn't try to solve the paradox that is that GMs and players determine what happens – it embraces it.


15.) What areas of your game receive extra attention and color? Why?

Mechanics, because it is the core of the game and story.


16.) Which part of your game are you most excited about or interested in? Why?

See 15)


17.) Where does your game take the players that other games can't, don't, or won't?

It provides a very gamist (managing Notoriety and bringing Themes into scene), simulationist (setting) and narrativist (thematic) reason to try and control Narration (and Success, to a lesser degree).


18.) What are your publishing goals for your game?

Probably, making it a pdf. I still must learn about paying online (PayPal, for instance) and I'm thinking on releasing the core for free. If people get to like it, I might expand setting, add Chimeras, GM advice, things like that – but I have to finish the core first.


19.) Who is your target audience?

People who like rules-lite games, focused on narrativist (as opposed to capitol-N Narrativist Creative Agenda) mechanics, who also enjoy the idea of playing a Tale.

[whiteknife]

I don't think that lack of advancement really hurts a game like this. For one thing, a game focusing on narration doesn't need new abilities as much as more action oriented games to keep things fresh, because presumably) the narration does this for you. Second of all, if the characters are embodiments of classic tales (which by their definition, are always the same) then it wouldn't make much sense in game for them to advance either.

Also, I agree that you need to better define what characters are supposed to do, seeing as they have to do something and the players aren't always going to have something creative on hand, especially in a setting that's nonstandard like yours. Unfortunately, i have no idea on how exactly you should go about defining that better. Maybe by making some innate drives to each character? I suppose you'd know best, being the games creator and all.

Also, good luck on the game. I really did like the fables comics, and an RPG based on them sounds interesting.

[imago]

Also, I agree that you need to better define what characters are supposed to do, seeing as they have to do something and the players aren't always going to have something creative on hand, especially in a setting that's nonstandard like yours (...) Maybe by making some innate drives to each character?

Tales are the embodiment of a fairy tale that we have stopped telling, which forced them to leave their realm to come to the Mundane, expecting both to fulfill their Stories and escape dreadful Oblivion.

Well, I certainly need to expand on this point, then.

Themes take care of this. Themes are (currently) Leit Motif, Antagonist and Dream. Leit Motif is the recurring theme that Tales want to bring to the Mundane; Antagonist is an NPC that might be on any side of the Portals that oppose Tales; Dream is what characters really need to achieve, what their whole Story is about, although they might seem unattainable.

Themes are intended to provide not only ways to regain Essences but also those drives you talked about. I'm not sure, though, if this enough, so let me post the three sample characters' Themes that I've created as far:


Peter Wrongweaver

Leit Motif: Trickster
Antagonist: Lord Iron (an obnoxious, proud rich noble)
Dream: Wealth (Peter's Flaw is Poverty)

Wrongweaver wants to be rich and he regains Essences not only when pursuiting his Dream but also when being a Trickster and opposing obnoxious people on power positions. Will he be able to become rich and remain thus?


I-Smell-Blood

Leit Motif: Solitary Hero
Antagonist: Black Tiger
Dream: Being Crowned after hunting Black Tiger

I-Smell-Blood is a tribal hunter who is always after a mythic beast that crossed the Portals decades ago. Will he be able to find and kill the Black Tiger? How will he go back to Amber Desert?


Sealus, Witch of Tides

Leit Motif: Lost love
Antagonist: Dove Queen (local Harbinger! and Sealus' Vow is Not to Harm Queen Dove)
Dream: Recover Lover

After doves took away Count Jason Pearleyes, Sealus went after Dove Queen to get him back; however, Dove Queen had crossed the Portals and became a Harbinger. How will Sealus get Jason back? Will she be able to take revenge on the evil Queen in spite of her Vow?


...

Hmm... I see a trend about Dreams not only being goals but also begging to be sources of conflict. What can I do to reinforce that? A conflictive condition?

I do realize that I still don't have anything that makes PCs to do things as a group - Tales do things for their own reasons but I lack of a cohessive reason to band and act together (even Vows are, at best, ways to give missions to PCs).

Suggestions? Critics?

[Greg 1]

How do the PCs cooperate?

What is the world like?

What happens if you kill your antagonist?

[imago]

Thanks for those questions, Greg. Let me see...

How do the PCs cooperate?

This is why I need something more defined for PCs to act as a group... Anyway, PCs cooperate affecting Notoriety (which effects all Tales in a scene and is carried around by the group) and, since any Tale can gain Narrative control, they can cooperate affecting and transforming environment. Also, they can assist each other using abilities other PCs don't have, as usual on most RPGs (an example, using my sample characters from above: I-Smell-Blood can use his tracking skills -Hunter Essence- to find a place where a murder was committed and retrieve forensic-like information); Sealus would use her Oracle Essence to try and get a Success on a postcognition attempt).

What is the world like?

The Mundane is our present day world, plus Tales that live on a semi-feudal, underground loose society where Harbinger acts as a local lord/lady, plus Chimerae (loose creatures from beyond the Portals that are roaming around). Humankind as a whole is unaware of the presence of Tales, though ther might/should be small groups that noticed that world sometimes gets changed on sudden, not-always-tiny bursts (Narration can go way over the top if the group agrees to it).

Is there something else that you need to know about this?

What happens if you kill your antagonist?

First, currently Tales don't have health points, only Essences, so the question actually is "can a Tale be killed?" My first answer would be: not in the Mundane, but they can be worn down. And, should an Antagonist be killed, that might remove the Antagonist Theme from the Tale, making the PC unable to draw on it to refresh Essences; this seems to me the most interesting solution, leaving the choice up to the players. Other, non-mutually-exclusive options are: players would need to pick a new Antagonist, risk Oblivion or it's a condition for endgame (something I hadn't even considered until now).

But yes, I had noticed that problem, except that I had thought on Harbingers rather than Antagonists and I was thinking that Harbingers should be harder to affect, so the GM would roll 4d6 instead of just three for Harbingers and can't give a Vow up, even if a player wants to Narrate that (so, no there's no way around that - Tales will have to keep their Vows).

Hmm... the more I think it the more I see killing a Tale (both PCs and NPCs) as something that shouldn't be possible by default, even during a combat. That leads to other less conventional solutions but...

Is it too early to tell the effect this might have? Maybe I should start a separate thread for what happens to a game where killing PCs (and some important NPCs) is not possible?

[tongue-on-cheek] Great, now a I need even more feedback! [/tongue]

Thanks! Keep them coming, because I will gladly answer.

[Dustin Bingham]

Hi Ian,

I'm looking at this from a different angle - can Tales consummate or fulfill their story in the Mundane?  Can I-Smell-Blood ever find the Black Tiger?  If so, can advancement tie into this (that is, the Tale is coming ever closer to finishing their story via advancement)?  Also, what happens if Tales do end their story? Does I-Smell-Blood and Black Tiger fade away? Or instead are they always kind of doomed to be hunter and hunted while they figure their way in the Mundane? 

I haven't read the comics, so forgive me if these questions are pretty far off-base from what you are going for, but I like the idea very much of Fairy Tales coming alive in the real (mundane) world, and the tragic sort of relief of finally achieving their end struck me hard as a very interesting possibility.

Also - I just want to question this - DO the Players need to cooperate in a group sense? Perhaps a Sorcerer-esque weaving of paths may be more inline - they each have their own story going on, occasionally crossing. If the gm plays the backstory well, they can very naturally work together (or not), as the Players see fit.

Dustin

[imago]

Wow, Dustin, that last post is full of awesome stuff! Thank you so much.

I'm looking at this from a different angle - can Tales consummate or fulfill their story in the Mundane?  Can I-Smell-Blood ever find the Black Tiger?  If so, can advancement tie into this (that is, the Tale is coming ever closer to finishing their story via advancement)?  Also, what happens if Tales do end their story? Does I-Smell-Blood and Black Tiger fade away? Or instead are they always kind of doomed to be hunter and hunted while they figure their way in the Mundane?

This is the core of what I'm working on. Let me go over your questions, if only to clear my ideas on the subject.

• Tales are meant to fulfill their Stories, but I need to make that interesting on itself, not just Colorful.
  
• I-Smell-Blood can find the Black Tiger, but needs also needs to be crowned after that, which means crossing the Portal back to his realm,
• Rather than advancement, that reads to me as Endgame condition for that character, which I like.
• I do need to define what Fulfillment means.
• And whether I-Smell-Blood and Black Tiger fade away, back to their realm because that's what they must do or will always hunt each other in the Mundane is something that must be left to players to address.

[note to self: this reinforces that character generation is key. Dream, Antagonist and Leit Motif must clash, if not among each other, with Vow/Harbinger, Attitude (and an Obstacle?)]

I haven't read the comics, so forgive me if these questions are pretty far off-base from what you are going for, but I like the idea very much of Fairy Tales coming alive in the real (mundane) world, and the tragic sort of relief of finally achieving their end struck me hard as a very interesting possibility.

We're on the same page, then, so I do need to find a way to make the interesting Tale condition an interesting, compelling source of conflicts.

Also - I just want to question this - DO the Players need to cooperate in a group sense? Perhaps a Sorcerer-esque weaving of paths may be more inline - they each have their own story going on, occasionally crossing. If the gm plays the backstory well, they can very naturally work together (or not), as the Players see fit.

Oh, yes, of course. I don't see how it is even possible for characters to just do things as a group. I was just reacting to the natural tendence characters with such a great narrative power and spotlight to go on their own at the expense of other characters and Greg's question about cooperation.


Basicly, I need to make everything thematically entangled and provide the necessary traits or setting trappings in order to make it possible.

Suggestions?

[Dustin Bingham]

Hi Ian,

Sweet! That sounds really interesting to me.  I agree that you want to stick Tales fulfilling their Story right at the heart of play, then.

In Polaris, there is a nifty mechanic that might give you some inspiration with how to do that.  There is a stat thing called "Zeal/Weariness" that, more or less, is a marker for how close that character is from their endgame.  Zeal falls to 0, and then Weariness accumulates.  When Weariness reaches 4 (I think, I don't have the book with me at the moment), the endgame occurs for that character.  There are two other stats, Ice and Light, which are the characters effectiveness in conflict.  Now, if the character advances - they get to choose one (Ice or Light), and advance that effectiveness.  But they also have to drop Zeal or raise Weariness.  So advancement is both character advancement and the endgame condition all in one.  This sort of thing might help with your Tale design.

As far as spotlight hogging goes, I've found that a simple card-like turn system works really well.  Each player gets a scene (or scenes, or what-have-you) in clockwise order.  Players get it immediately - in traditional RPGs, combat usually works in turns, and most everyone has played boardgames or cardgames, and they work the same way. Its only RPGs that kind-of have this crazy free-for-all, everyone trying to grab the gm's time, effect.  A good gm is able to keep it in hand, but an average gm (like me) tends to let the player with the strongest social skills get the most screen time.  So moving to something more formal aids me, personally. Maybe enforcing something like this through the rules might help?