Mechanics for the "light" and "dark" side?

[henricius]

In my game I want a dark and light side in magic. Much like it is in Star Wars or in The Lord of The Rings where the ring bearer is corrupted and tempted by Sauron (or the dark side).

I wanted to have a mechanic in my game that is tempting the player by the rules to chose the dark side. Tempting not only by story but also by rules.

After some thinking (and reading books and forum) I developed my ideas and now I want interesting but different advantages for both the "light" and "dark" side. I want the two sides to feel different not only in story but also in rules. My problem is know obvious, how to do this?

I have an example on a mechanic that somebody mentioned somewhere. I am not sure if I will use this but I like the simplicity.

Example:

Both Dark and lightsiders get some kind of  bonus points as a symbol of how light or dark they are.
The Darksider gets a bonus of +1/point on all skill tests.
The Lightsider gets an automatic success 1 time/playsession/point.

I want them differnt but also balanced and I don't know how balanced this example is.

I am looking forward for inputs from you on this board. Do you have similar mechanics in your games. Or can you maybe give some good examples on other games that have some good systems.

This is by the way my first post here.

/Henrik

[Marshall Burns]

Welcome to the Forge, Henrik!

One thing you might want to look at is Robert Bohl's Misspent Youth, with its Selling Out mechanic.  Your character starts out young and idealistic; selling out means acting more like the Authority that your characters are working against.  It works by changing a trait from its "pure" version to its "sold out" version.  For example, Tough sells out to Brutal; Bad sells out to Perverse; Abused sells out to Abusive.

The mechanical effect of the traits never changes, because the mechanics are all abstract (and remarkably un-gameable, but that's irrelevant here).  But they definitely change the game.  Accomplishing something by being Brutal is worlds apart from accomplishing it by being Tough.

-Marshall

[Darcy Burgess]

Hey Marshall,

That's interesting.  How does Misspent Youth handle the interstitial space between "tough" and "brutal" in terms of the SIS; is it a gradual progression, or is it a binary thing, or is it unspoken?

Thanks,
D

[Marshall Burns]

It's binary.  Upon losing a conflict, you can opt to sell out one of your traits, and use the sold out version to win the conflict anyway.  That winning narration is often pretty rough.  And you can never regain the "pure" version of the trait.

[David Artman]

Have you checked out any of the Star Wars RPGs, which deal with Dark Side points and such?

You could read up on Corruption mechanics in the Magic Burner for Burning Wheel.

As for "different feel," it's fairly common in many genres for the dark way to be easier and faster but have significant narrative impact (hated, feared, lose humanity, etc) while the light way is harder but carries greater rewards in the end and a positive, if not down-right encouraging, social reaction or story impact. For example, it's usually easier to raise the dead than to create a golem, but the former involves trafficking with bad people in bad places and makes hideous results, making the necromancer live in hiding or in fear 9or ruling with an iron fist). The golem maker, conversely, is often a kindly, toiling-in-his-shop sort--maybe not a figure of note, but not hunted or hated.

Work with that, when you're looking at mechanical effects (relative ease) and impacts on story or society (setting requirements or reactions).

[dindenver]

Henrik,
  I think the light side/dark side is fascinating as well.

  For LoL, I opted for a system where good reputation influenced charm and persuasion and where a bad reputation influenced threats and intimidation. I made them mechanically balanced though. So a bad rep gets penalties for charm and persuasion and a good rep gets a penalty to threats and intimidation.

  And this highlights a technique I would suggest to you, make it a 0-sum game. Like if one player isn't more mechanically cool if they choose one option over the other, then the choice itself becomes significant, no?

  Maybe light side has more spectacular successes (higher quality of success), while the dark side has a higher chance of success. You would need to fudge with the numbers to make it worthwhile, but it feels right thematically to me.

  Good luck with your game.

[opsneakie]

Basically, I think the dark side mechanic should allow the player to slip over to the dark side for progressively higher immediate bonuses, while the light side can provide slighter, permanent bonuses. So you can call upon the dark side to win right now, but the light side will make you better all the time. This way, both are helpful to the player, and while hte light side is arguably better benefit, the dark side is much more tempting mechanically to call on.

[henricius]

One thing you might want to look at is Robert Bohl's Misspent Youth, with its Selling Out mechanic.  Your character starts out young and idealistic; selling out means acting more like the Authority that your characters are working against.  It works by changing a trait from its "pure" version to its "sold out" version.  For example, Tough sells out to Brutal; Bad sells out to Perverse; Abused sells out to Abusive.

Good approach, I will try to look into that. I like the idea of having the choice of sacrifice some of your "good side" to get out of a tough situation.

Have you checked out any of the Star Wars RPGs, which deal with Dark Side points and such?

No, unfortunately I have not tried any Star Wars RPGs (strange?). Someday I have to that.

As for the narrative impact that different choices have on the story that David Artman mentioned I totally agree. The narrative impact is very important but at this moment I was more focusing on the mechanics in the rules.

  For LoL, I opted for a system where good reputation influenced charm and persuasion and where a bad reputation influenced threats and intimidation. I made them mechanically balanced though. So a bad rep gets penalties for charm and persuasion and a good rep gets a penalty to threats and intimidation.

Yes, rules for reputation is good. I must consider this a bit more. It is also a way of implementing the "narrative impact" that David wrote about.

  Maybe light side has more spectacular successes (higher quality of success), while the dark side has a higher chance of success. You would need to fudge with the numbers to make it worthwhile, but it feels right thematically to me.

"Higher quality of success" vs "higher chance of success" sounds like a good idea.  I have to figure out how this can be implemented in my rules. Right know my game uses "opposed rolls" where you use you skill + dice-roll against the opponents skill + dice-roll. The one with the highest success wins the roll. In battle the quality of success is used to show how much damage or advantage you gain.

Basically, I think the dark side mechanic should allow the player to slip over to the dark side for progressively higher immediate bonuses, while the light side can provide slighter, permanent bonuses. So you can call upon the dark side to win right now, but the light side will make you better all the time. This way, both are helpful to the player, and while hte light side is arguably better benefit, the dark side is much more tempting mechanically to call on.

Also very good. I want rules that makes this possible. The dark side should have more of a boost and the light side a more permanent bonus. But how to balance it?

Thanks everybody so far for interesting and welcoming answers.

/Henrik

[dindenver]

Henrik,
  One thing I am working on is a new twist on Vampires. The idea is that in the game world I am building a Vampire gains power by succumbing to temptation.
  So, the game will have normal advancement. But it will have a "dark side" advancement that is totally different. Basically, the idea is, at any point, the player can pick a Vampire power (most likely one that would allow them to win the current conflict or solve their current problem) and they get it instantly. But, instead of going into XP debt or burning XPs on the new power, they have to take a vampire weakness. So, the idea is that in a matter of seconds after chargen, the player could have a character with insane powers, but they would also have insane weaknesses. Basically, I abhor the idea of a lvl 1 vampire, so this was my solution.
  It seems like you could tweak it to match the setting/genre you are going for in your game with not too much work.
  Good luck man!

[David Artman]

Dave, you've basically described Corruption in a nutshell--it gives you More Big Dice, but as it ratchets up, you pick up nasty appearances and Traits (basically, think Nosferatu or Palpatine when in full Sith Lord freak-out in Episode III). And, as I mentioned, it's a given that the society doesn't much like folks with chitinous skin or leprosy or what-not (not sure if those are actual Corruption Traits; book not with me).

So it's an add-on mechanic--the default is no one has Corruption and therefore no one can call on the More Big Dice. But the Corrupt Sorcerer CAN call on those dice, and the price of that is a mix of mechanical and social (IIRC, some of the Corrupted Traits even give you bennies of a sort--not everyone can live on blood alone, for instance!).