<W6-Space Ranger> Need help with mechanics.

[CSBone]

First a disclaimer. I was trying to create a pseudonym for my writing and was posting as Christopher Steven Bone when I was here last. Turned out to be too much work. Real name is Neil Striker. I post around as WildWalker.

Now that is out of the way...I've been working on Space Ranger ever since I left (you can see the original version here). I posted it for one of Ron's contests. Turns out it really was as bad as Ron said it was...I just didn't get it.

I've since built a new system and am now digging back into how to make that new base system into the game I want to play and publish (turns out Ron was right and the world makes a big difference in the discussion...who knew?).

The system is W6 (Go here). Most recent version of the system is Version 0.7. It is not complete but it needs a bunch of play-testing and I know the next set of tweeks need to be toward supporting the kinds of games I like.

What I could really use is some thoughts (from outside my head) on how to transform the Heroism Dice and Action Dice mechanics into both currency and flags for the GM to encourage a particular type of play (jump in with both feet and go go go GO GOOOO!) and to keep the game moving (I don't like "grind"...it irritates me) along for the Players to say "this is important" and "this is fun".

I think the mechanic has the potential to do that but I'm not sure it's "juicy" enough yet.

I really want to support "Movie Length" and "TV Show" length games where the Players can create Characters in 15 minutes that are HEROS OR can use a favorite Character, can jump in, play a game that scream along for 45 minutes to two hours and finish in a heroic gut wrenching, nail-biting finale where everyone at the table finishes breathing hard and grinning from ear to ear...and can't wait to do it again next time.

I could use some input and some thinking on how to get there.

Thanks in advance.

Neil

[dindenver]

Neil,
  Have you looked at Solar System/.Shadow of Yesterday?

  I am a huge fan, but two mechanics in it strike me as applicable to your problem
1) Keys - in TSoY, Keys are part of the character sheet are chosen at charg4n and can be changed therough the use of XPs. What they do is establish what the character is about. One good example is, Key of Compassion. You get Varying XPs depending on if you help someone, if it is dangerous for you to help them and if the person being helped learns how to help them selves in the end or not. this one concept is fascinating to be it own game, but this is just one of many Keys that come pre-built in the game.
2) Secrets - Secrets are like special power, but they are usually thematically important and chosen freely by the player rather than part of a Class or what have you.

  So, maybe heroism dice can work like Keys (get dice when you fulfill your motivation for being in this story) and Action dice can be like Secrets (get dice when you do something cool) or vice versa?

  Also, why a d18? And why a 2d6 if the player is younger?

  What makes a Strength Parenthetical?

  This systems seems to be agnostic in regards any story concerns. I mean players get a luck mechanic (its not clear when Hero/Action dice get used, before or after the regular roll, this will drastically change their use and dynamic). but that luck mechanic currently is not tied to story concerns, character beliefs or even player effort really. I feel like if there is a way for the player to say, "this is important to me" this system might pop more. Another source that might get your juices flowing is 3:16, in this game a player can narrate a flashback of how their character faced a similar situation and then they win the conflict automatically (there is another version for losing automatically too, btw). This allows the players to elaborate on their character's back story in a way that is in context of the current story and success at the stuff that is most important to them. Maybe you could do something like this?

  Either way, good luck with your game man!

[Gregor Hutton]

Hey Neil

I remember Space Rangers well, it's been a long time and welcome back!

I've printed out your system and I'll have a read through it and get back to you. I guess you've got that lifepath kind of thing going on with character creation, and I like that conflicts have Hit Points. Anyway, it seems like there is a lot on intricacy there but I'm not sure what sort of play it's trying to drive in the fiction, or what are useful Strengths, etc.

Anyway, off to read more closely and have a think about it!

[Gregor Hutton]

Oh, and just as a note to myself here is the thread from the archive that links together the original threads.

I'm excited to see this still being worked on.

[CSBone]

I'm a little tired so I'm not sure how coherent I'm gong to be but here we go...

Dave,

I have not looked at SoY.

As for the D18 and 2d6 notes...there is a bit of a story involved...and it may ramble a bit.

Space Ranger got sidelined because I couldn't make the system work for me. I knew how I wanted to play but I couldn't make it work with the system I was working on...so I set it aside. Just before D&D 4e came out I ran across Greywulf's Microlite20 and fell in love with the idea of a system that could fit on a single sheet of paper. Since 4e was coming I decided to try to figure out a 4e hack (before the system was released) that would play like the coming game and be as compact as M20. 4e came out and I realized that I really didn't want to do fantasy so I started hacking M20 into a game I did want to play. The first hack was to try to get rid of the need for anything but a couple of d6s so D18 is a way to get pretty close to D20 using two 6-sided dice without creating a bell curve. The 2d6 comes in because I play a W6 fantasy game with my 3 year old son. (Frank the Dragon is actually his character). My son can count pips on two dice but can't do the math for D18, hence the note.

Parenthetical Strengths are an artifact of the phased Character creation process and the leveling mechanic. A Strength can be +3 (1) meaning that the Player has paid 7 points (6 for the +3 and 1 more on the way to +4) and that Strength would beat a +3 if they tied...or a +2...but a +2 (2) would beat both on a tie.

Right now the system is quite agnostic. It's really designed to be pretty universal. I hacked the classes out and replaced them with Strengths and didn't look back.

Heroism Dice are actually an encounter level resource that was originally designed to give an emulation of D&D 4e Encounter Powers, but in practice has become part of the level bonus. Since they are a Player resource, not a Character resource, I figure there is no reason not to allow the Player to roll one at any time in the rolling process at a rate of one per roll.  In practice that means that a Player can choose to buff a roll, save a roll or win a close contest if they have the dice. One per roll keeps it from getting out of hand.

Action Dice started out as an attempt give a Player a bigger boost to emulate Daily powers but in play it works to reward Players for "putting it out there". I capped them at 3 at a time because I want the Players to use them, not horde them. Since it is entirely possible to use one on a roll, make it cool, and get it back I don't think it penalizes the Player but I still need some more playtesting to see if 3 is a good cap.

Mechanically it seems to work pretty well but I'm just not sure if it's juicy ENOUGH.

A big concern is that I do not want the mechanics to bloat. I realize I'm not going to keep the whole game on a Pocketmod but I want the mechanics to fit in you're pocket when I'm done.

Gregor!

I've got to get a copy of 3:16! I didn't realize you had finished it!

I got the idea of phased character creation from FATE and it works dandy. I keep thinking it might be a fun meta game to build real lifepaths but I don't want to build it into the base game.

As you can tell I'm quite a ways away from where I started but I'm still striving for the sensibilities of the original work...turns out I don't hate hit points as much as I thought either...

The variety of possible Strengths is one of the beauties of the W6 system. I've still got to determine where I want to bench mark the system in terms of bonuses per level but the idea is that almost any Strength can be good in almost any conflict.

Big Bertha, my BFGun +3 could work as good as Athletic +3 in a fight and both might work as well as Pretty +3 in a social situation. After third level Heroism/Action dice and the +1per 2 levels quickly become as or more important in the actual rolls....except for DEFINING the character.

Strengths can also end up pretty defined if it makes sense. But they don't have to be. Here is two examples of pretty defined Strengths. Redjack (6th post). CASpers (6th post). Flying on Frank the Dragon is a double cost Strength. I need to do some more defining of HOW they work but the idea is very flexible and, so far at least, works pretty well.

Which brings me back to my first dilemma...is Heroism and Action dice juicy enough or do I need to define them better or add more mechanics?

Dave, if I'm reading you right, you are saying "not juicy enough".

Neil

[dindenver]

Neil,
  Hmmm...
  What I meant by "agnostic in regards any story concerns" is that the system doesn't seem to care if the player rolling is helping or hurting the story or, on an even larger scale. if the roll is for a PC. is a spur of the moment throw away roll. or if everyone at the table is holding their breath to see what will happen.

  So, the suggestions I made were aimed in that direction.

  The idea that you can make the character about story without pinning a character class or alignment on them is not new, but it probably has not been fully explored.

That's why I suggested altering the Action/Hero Dice to clearly be about what the player wants and/or what the story wants and why.

  So maybe, instead of loosey-goosey rules like 'if they player advances the story, they get a cookie,' how about 'if the character is compassionate and they do something compassionate, give them a cookie.' Since the story is supposed to be about the PCs, defining who they are (in a limited way that allows for flexible story telling) makes it easier for the GM and players to identify the story everyone wants to tell and advance it organically. Going in that direction, maybe that is how Action Dice could work, something like this:
Key of Compassion
  If a character tries to help another character that cannot or will not help themselves, that character receives an Action die usable during the scene that the compassionate act was performed.

  In this way, they get a little oomph for the big scenes the player cares about (assuming they are allowed to pick the key themselves), but only if they are acting in character. Its still a per encounter power and best of all no record keeping, its a 'snooze you lose mechanic,' they do something nice, they get the die for one scene, they don't use it, it goes away.

  We could probably do something "like" that for Hero dice, but I don't want to waste too much brain power thinking of a good mechanic if you don't want to go in this direction...

  So, if that is what you mean by it is not juicy enough, then, yeah. Otherwise, what does 'Juicy' mean? Maybe I can help that come to life better if I knew what you were aiming at.

[CSBone]

I finally looked a TSoY and think I know what you mean by Secrets and Keys. (I also  really like how it defines "Fortune in the Middle" as a 4 step process...very useful.)

I think W6 Strengths can be defined such that they can act as both...or neither. I don't see Heroism/Action Dice that way. I see them as a resource...like TSoY experience points...I think. Let me try to explain and you tell me where it gets lost for you.

Example of Strength as a Key
I see a Strength: Compassionate as something that could be used in a variety of encounters as both an advantage and a disadvantage. Social encounters are kind of obvious but I can see it used in combat encounter's too. In a combat encounter, I could see it used as a Defense value (he's so nice I don't really want to hurt him...THAT bad) or a disadvantage (he's such a WIMP) or even as a kind of "Agro", to coin a video gaming term (I'm going to kill that compassionate freak!), depending on the circumstances and the agreements in play between the GM and the Players.

Example of Strength as a Secret
I defined Flying for Frank the Dragon at a double cost because I think resource management is a little much for my three year old, but I could have easily defined it as something that requires Hero/Action Dice to use.  1 per hour of easy non-combat flight and two per Encounter.

Actually, talking about it is making something clear for me. I see Hero/Action dice as the "battery" to power doing "cool stuff". The "cool stuff" is written into the Strengths of the Character. Heroism, then, is the power battery that gets better because the Character gets more experienced. Action Dice is a battery that gets better because the Player is engaged and engaging.

Based on that idea I'm actually asking the wrong question. The right question, is, are the Strengths "juicy" enough?

So you asked what I mean by "juicy". It's a term I use with my friend to describe something that "cranks you up". I think Strengths are "juicy" because the word that describes the Strength evokes a myriad of images and possibilities. A good Strength opens doors to role-playing possibilities. Strength Compassionate doesn't actually "juice" me, although I could see how it might be really "juicy" for others. Which actually is a really good insight. I  guess the help I really need is coming up with how to help a Player define Strengths that are  "juicy" and open up possibilities and that can be easily powered by Heroism and Action Dice so you get the most out of each one.

Awesome.

So...what would you put in place to help a Player define their Strengths so that they are as "juicy" as possible and open the most possible doors to role-playing and power-up effectively and intuitively, in play, with Heroism/Action Dice?

Neil

[dindenver]

Neil,
  I liked Strengths as is. I think that the player defines what they are, is a big dose of awesome.
  I think its Action dice/Hero dice that "aren't special." They are good, but I don't see why anyone would get psyched about them.

[CSBone]

I've got to admit, I really like Strengths myself. To be able to define a fantastically cool character in 15 minutes that is Player specific...much "juice".

If I gave up on being able to use d6's only and changed the base back to D20 and the Strengths scale from +1/+2/+3/+4/+5 to +d4+d6+d8+d10+d12; Heroism Dice could probably go away as a Mechanic. The range gets big enough without going over the top..and polyhedrals are a much more sci-fi-y prop.

In the original design, "Gonzo" sucesses (essentially a critical success) let the Player take the Author stance in the narrative and change things up by narrating a "wild" sucess (or a "wild" failure...PCs should always be able to make things tougher on themselves if they want to. It cranks up the game and raises the level of engagement) so long as they didn't break verisimilitude. There is a lot I liked about the idea...I just didn't like how it "felt", mechanics wise, in the mechanics I was building before. I'm planning on writing that into the base mechanics when I write in the Player rolls everything mechanics.

Still...something is missing. I want a mechanic, or set of mechanics that will flag the action and allow everyone at the table a way to:

A: Affect the action from their seat by giving some of their resources away or putting new resources into play so that everybody is playing all of the time.
B: Allow people to increase or decrease the pace.
C: Allow people to raise the level of conflict or crank it down.
D: Comunicate clearly, in the moment, what is important  and "juicy"so the GM can make the game more fun for the Player.
E: Can be used to power "cool stuff" or "going out on a limb".

I think Action  Dice does all of that... it is just not particularly "juicy". WHat I need is a mechannic that does all of that without adding a lot to the volume of the mechanics? I would still like to keep the system as light as possible. I'd also like to keep the definitions of the actual characteristics for the Players.

WHat I've got so far, though is:
Heroism dice can go if I change the scale of bonuses and the dice base.
I need to write in the Author stance for critical successes...and loss of all narration rights for critical failures...GMs should get some fun too.

Still missing a big resource but I'm getting there...and this is feeling mch better than the original mechanics.

Neil

I wonder about a Token mechanic of some sort...

[CSBone]

Just finished kludging these ideas together with stuff from the original game.

W6-20-SpaceRangers-Version0.8-112308ns.rtf

It's pretty rough but I'm excited about how it is going together.

I know I've got to do a Power 19 on this at some point, but something that is very clear to me now is that I want to support a mechanically light Sim/Nar Creative Agenda. I'm interested in Task Resolution, not Conflict Resolution...and that is a big change from the orginal.

Next step I think is some play-testing...

Things I know I'm missing right now:

• Meta-system for world creation (perhaps even a meta game)
• System for defining and building antagonists and conflicts.
• Benchmarks for conflicts.
• Background is a mess.
• Equipment and technology essays and lists.

Neil

[Gregor Hutton]

Thanks Neil. I've collected the file and printed it off. I'll try making some characters and see where I get stuck and so on.

Gregor

[CSBone]

Thanks Gregor. Been a bit busy so I haven't been back in a bit.

Well, the system works really well, mechanically, but character creation is still a bit of a mess. I'm also finding the system does not support "gear porn" as well as I'd like.

Right now I have 4 character creation systems sort of defined:

• 15 Points, pick as you'd like.
• 4 Phases.
• Background questions.
• Open ended.

They all work but I'm not really getting what I want. I've created about a dozen characters, all told, using the various systems and they are just not exciting me.

My thought right now is to scam Gregor's Combat/Non Combat as the two base attributes, one at d20, one at d20+d4. Traits then are upshifts (Null to +1, +1 to d4, d4 to d6, d6 to D8, d8 to d10, d10 to d12).

That fixes the one problem I'm seeing which is that I'm building combat into every character as the first thing and that's kind of boring.

Doesn't, yet, fix my wish to support "gear porn", though...

Just some thoughts. I'm off to re-write V.08 and do some more testing.

Neil

[CSBone]

Strengths, not Traits...

Neil