is this the place to ask for input on social actions?

[chance.thirteen]

I am trying to brainstorm on what sort of social actions and capacities exist, and how they seem to be related in the real world, then use those notes to design skill and social value systems for a variety of games. I would like to ask people here, but I am wondering if this particular forum is the right place to ask, or if The Forge is the right place to ask.

This is not for an innovative new design or game premise. It's just plain old trying to describe reality in an semi-organized fashion.

Is this the place to ask for input?

[whiteknife]

Although I'm far from the expert on such topics, I would think that this would be a fine place to ask for such advice.

As for some actual advice... well there are quite a few games that feature 'social combat' style mechanics nowadays.

The way I usually see it broken down in these games is a set of skills like bluff, diplomacy, intimidation, bribery, knowledge about a topic, charisma, charm, insight, etc. and then you roll them either like a normal combat (only social!) or as a simple "roll to see if you convince the duke to up your reward" type of thing. However, just because that's how those games do it that doesn't mean that's how you should. I would think modeling reality, especially for social dynamics, would be secondary to having a system that's fun to use. I don't know anything about what specifically (or even generally for that matter) you might be applying this too, but I would suggest that if social actions are going to be a large or important part of your game that you make them interesting to use. For example, I'm sure you're aware of the detail many (most) RPGs put into their combat system. If you want social actions to be interesting enough that people want to use them, then make them fun.

Other than that though, I can't help you much. Social dynamics vary so much between culture that there doesn't seem to be much value in discussing them without knowing anything about your game. (For all I know it could be set anywhere from prehistoric earth to complex space dynasties, and both will likely have far different approaches to social situations.)

[JoyWriter]

Have you considered looking at sociology, psychology, and philosophy? Stuff like speech act theory? The sort of thing you are referring to is basically part of their job!

But more directly focusing on rpgs; do you want to consider social events in terms of conflicts, analogous to something like Luke's debate model in "Battle of wits"? Or tricking/psychological torture/distraction/browbeating? Or do you also want to include people coming to mutual understanding, finding agreements that suit both, building relationships? Do you want to include the shifting of language, adjusting "atmosphere", being polite, humour, inspiration? Reading people, taking hints, changing the subject, redirecting people's aggression, showing things in a new light, reminding people? Romance, seduction and attraction?
Do you want to include playing rpgs?

I would suggest that this avenue is a pretty unexplored one, and breaking new ground in any of the above might be a bit of a triumph, however partial it's representation. So any bites?

[chance.thirteen]

This has been a topic of interest to me for decades. Not that interest has turned into any sort of expertise mind you.

I have looked over many social combat systems. I have done reading on social skills, behavior problems, various group dynamics, leadership and communication styles, persuasion techniques, norm enforcement, relationships, various personality typing methods, cultural practices, conflicts in various styles, societal level conflicts, and I suppose a great deal more. I have also tried to pay attention to social action and tension in movies, plays and books.

The game design goals are at this moment not on the table for me. I know I am not terribly concerned that I produce something that would be a simulation on the level of a crowd traffic simulation.

The stage I am at is about trying to list off just about anything to do with human interaction and motivation, where there are levels of experience or multiple techniques available. I have a huge list of thoughts, roughly grouped together. not all would point towards commonly used social action in a RPG or any game, but I want to know they are there.

The next stage is trying to merge thigns that seem to be the exact same thing. After that, then I'd get into organizing it by some sort of approach. My approach before has been "what is the end result of this method of social interaction" with notes on how i see various techniques producing more specific actions.

This will produce a nice big organized reference of social actions, hopefully with pointers towards things of interst in either RPG action, or perhaps as details in PC or NPC psychology and personality. This reference then can be looked at as a game is designed. You could make a skjill for EACH possible thing (bleah) or you can take a middle ground and have 5-10 skills, or even a limited rating like Social Skill, but you would still have a nicely organized set of thoughts on the details and nuaces of social action. How they are used in play, be it atomic procedural play, conflict level resolution, with betting or guessing mechanics, or modelled after a combat, is up to the given design.

In short, I am looking for the real world of the social arena, before itgets involved in game design at all.

How I wish there was a spoiler tag here that allowed you to collapse sections and open them so i could post this stuff and not have a huge post.

I will post what I have. I will say that it already has parts that are organized by how I think about them, these are not set decisions or game design decisions, they are just how I see it lacking other input.

[chance.thirteen]

Note there can easily be repeats in here.



Things one does with social aptitude and skills


Group Involvement

Navigate a new culture
Deal with a sub-culture (street, corporate, high society, high court, the Senate, business, etc)
Integrate and participate in a group appropriately
Handle a crowd/mob dynamic
Handle an organization dynamic
Recognize social order and arrangements
Belonging and fitting in
Cliques


Emotional Self-Awareness and Controls

Emotions and moods - identifying understanding managing expressing
Handle ones own emotions and emotional health, impulse control, management
Handling own attractions and antipathies – hatreds and attractions
Attitude

Influencing Others

Coerce – force with manipulation like nagging, or actual threat
Seduce – lure with offers of something desired, money, sex, power, status
Manipulate – influence via information editing, emphasis, presentation - deceptive
Lie effectively – believably and carefully, to get what you want
Simulate emotions – acting convincingly about emotions and motives - deceptive
Motivate – inspire others to perform, to work as a group
Wheel and Deal – using a network to negotiate with many to resolve an need
Negotiate
Bluff, trick and outsmart
Persuade – convince others to believe or do something


Communication

Entertain – be funny, witty
Communicate – inform effectively
Expression - impart impressions, emotions, and experiences
Being well spoken

Mediate between two other parties - negotiation
Be appealing – standing out as attractive, friendly, alluring, competent, good impression
Being polite – polite, respectful
Be authoritative – ordering people, or appearing competent in a field

Personal Relations

Maintain a relationship
Handle a conflict – interpersonal or negotiation
Handle others emotions and emotional health
Gain trust - ??
Sooth or calm others – children, adults
Teach
Discipline other(s)
Handling own attractions and antipathies – hatreds and attractions

Perception and Countermeasures

Recognize others motives and desires
Recognize others emotions and moods
Resist Coercion
Resist/Recognize manipulation
Resist group pressure and norms
Obscure/disguise/hide motivations
Obscure/disguise/hide Emotions
Recognize lying and obfuscating behaviors