Rule variants

[Brian Leybourne]

Let me preface this by saying that I don't think the tRoS rule system is in any way lacking etc. I'm just one of those roleplayers who likes to try different things just to see how they affect stuff.

So, couple of thoughts for people to muse over.

What do you think of using a wild die, like Star Wars' D6 system? Whenever a person rolls a die pool, one of the dice is designated as a wild die. If the wild die comes up a 1, you also lose one of your successful dice (if you have none, then you botch, even if the wild die is your only 1). If you get a 10, you get to roll the wild die again so you might get an extra success if that re-roll is over the TN. Or, alternatively a 10 on the wild die counts as 2 successes instead of 1.

For even extra randomness, on a 1 re-roll the wild die in case the result is a 1 again. If it is, really bad things happen. Likewise if the re-roll from a 10 is another 10, then super goodness results.

This rule doesn't make the game any better or worse for the characters, it just introduces more randomness, which may or may not be a good thing as far as various groups are concerned.

Another thought - hero points. Players earn hero points for being spectacularly heroic and succeeding against all the odds. They can then spend a hero point for something at a later stage - suggestions as to what hero points can do...? Maybe add a single automatic success to any roll, or perhaps make the wild die automatically be considered a 10, or...

Just random thoughts. I like to play.

Brian.

[Mike Holmes]

Another thought - hero points. Players earn hero points for being spectacularly heroic and succeeding against all the odds. They can then spend a hero point for something at a later stage - suggestions as to what hero points can do...? Maybe add a single automatic success to any roll, or perhaps make the wild die automatically be considered a 10, or...

Sounds a lot like Luck. SAs are given for appropriate stuff. If your character has a Destiny or drive to be a hero, then he'll get rewarded appropriately. SAs kinda are hero points already, and they work well as they are.

OTOH, I like the wild die. Especially for fumbles. Better than the existing rule, I think, which has bugged me for a while.

Mike

[Brian Leybourne]

Sounds a lot like Luck. SAs are given for appropriate stuff. If your character has a Destiny or drive to be a hero, then he'll get rewarded appropriately. SAs kinda are hero points already, and they work well as they are.

Hmm.. good point :-)

OTOH, I like the wild die. Especially for fumbles. Better than the existing rule, I think, which has bugged me for a while.

I have always liked the wild die idea, and use it in a lot of my games. It's also a convenient GM's "cheat" so you can plausably have an NPC do staggeringly well or staggeringly badly against the odds, if it's necessary to help the story along.

Brian.

[Lance D. Allen]

I dunno, Mike, I think the fumble rules as they stand work fairly well. You're much, much more likely to fumble the harder the action (or the worse your skill) but that's the way things go. I've only seen a fumble twice in play, and oddly, both were on fairly simple tasks.. Just the luck of the toss, I suppose.

As for the wild die rule, I think it's workable, if you're not trying to go for the more realistic play. I've seen wild dice, as used in WEG Star Wars, do some ridiculous things, but those things were handled well, and enriched the story.

"The drive is about to overload? Hm. I grab a TM, and by the book, go through emergency procedures."

"Okay, sure. Roll for it"

"Ooh, a six on the wild die" reroll "another one" reroll "Holy shit, another one!" reroll "Um, you're not going to believe this... " reroll "A 3. The total is <blah blah blah, some unreal number"

"Do you have capital ship repair?"

"No, I was rolling with default penalties"

"Well, you do now. The ship is able to reroute power, allowing it to fire upon the enemy ship......."

The ship still blew up as it was a plot point, but we used the extra time his insane roll gave us to evacuate more civilians, and to damage the enemy considerably further before the Heart went up.. With us all on it. But that's a tale for another time.

[Ace]

Good excuse for me to post this natty little varient I thought up

I was looking through "Swashbuckling Adventures D20" which is a pretty neat D&D'd version of Seventh Sea

The game lists a zillion and one "fighting styles" each with a flaw that can be exploited

that got me to thinking about the Style Analysis skill and sword schools

In addition to tons of Roleplaying opportunity I could slip in a wee cinematic rule


I would work it is -- If you make a style analysis roll you get +1cp to your pool if your opponents  style is on the list of styles you are most effective against and vice versa

You can  see the idea of one style being better than another in a ton of movies and even in literature.

"So you thought to use Bonnetis defense against me eh?"

"I though it fitting considering the rocky terrain"

"Not against the Cyrmenthian Masters school"

Clang

[Mike Holmes]

I dunno, Mike, I think the fumble rules as they stand work fairly well. You're much, much more likely to fumble the harder the action (or the worse your skill) but that's the way things go.  

Yes, that part makes sense. But you're also much more likely to fumble the more dice you roll. That part is counterintuitive to say the least. Not totally unexplainable, but I like how the wild die works better.

Mike

[Mokkurkalfe]

The more dice you roll=the harder you try.
The harder you try=the more royal a fuck-up will be.

[Mike Holmes]

The more dice you roll=the harder you try.
The harder you try=the more royal a fuck-up will be.

Yes, that's the standard rationalization. The counter argument is that it seems absurd that only well trained people can put out this sort of effort. Anyone can, they are just more likely to goof up than the trained person.

Here's a variant fix. Allow people to have extra CP by "pushing" their effort level, say by a max amount equal to their EN. Make these a different color. On a failure, however, all of these special colored dice are considered to be 1's for purposes of potential fumbles. And even when a success is rolled any 1's that come up naturally on these dice still indicate that the character "fumbled" (in addition to succeeding). "You whirl around and cut your opponent in half, and then fall to the ground losing your weapon."

Makes a good "wild swing" maneuver. Allow thse dice to be taken into the pool when the maneuver is selected.

Mike

[Lyrax]

The only thing rolling more dice does is lessen your chance of regular failure.  That's all.

"Pushing"?  Sounds a whole lot like Passion, Conscience, Drive, Luck, Faith or Destiny.  Hmmmm.

[Mike Holmes]

The only thing rolling more dice does is lessen your chance of regular failure.  That's all.

Perhaps I am misreading the rule, please correct me if I'm wrong. I assume that to fumble you have to fail, and roll a one on some die.

You are actually right, Lyrax, stictly speaking, and under most circumstances. My statement was broad, and only pertains to certain other circumstances. Essentially as long as the TN is under 9, you are right, after a fashion.

Code Select Expand

                  Dice rolling TN7
                  2      3      4
Chance to fail     36.0%  21.6%  13.0%
Chance to roll a 1 19.0%  27.1%  34.4%
Chance to fumble    4.8%   3.4%   2.1%


                  Dice rolling TN9
                  2      3      4
Chance to fail     64.0%  51.2%  41.0%
Chance to roll a 1 19.0%  27.1%  34.4%
Chance to fumble   12.2%  13.9%  14.1%
But after TN 9 you are actually more likely to fumble in some cases (after four dice, it drops again, interestingly). The more failures occur, the more pronounced the effect.

But in all cases, your chance for a normal failure (as opposed to a fumble) decreases. A higher percentage of fumbles occurs. I don't know about you, but it seems to me that skill should reduce the appearance of fumbles amongst failed attempts. In any case, as shown by the wild die example, this is easy to do.

"Pushing"?  Sounds a whole lot like Passion, Conscience, Drive, Luck, Faith or Destiny.  Hmmmm.

Except these don't have any negative repercussions.

The idea I had was that a person should be able to get the same amount of dice if dice are effort. Just that they should have a potential downside, as the skill does not back them up.

Either way the system isn't broken. You just need to use the rationalization in appropriate doses. But I think that either of the above "fixes" are OK.

Mike

[Lance D. Allen]

How's this for a solution, then:

Skill Checks
If you roll 3, 4 or 5 dice you have to hit the normal 2 1's to fumble.
If you roll 1 or 2 dice, you only need a single 1 to fumble.
If you roll 6 or 7 dice, you need 3 1's to fumble.
If you roll 8, 9 or 10 dice, then you need 4 1's to fumble.

Combat Rolls, do the same thing, stepping up for every 2-3 dice with 6 as the beginning point for the default 2 1's required. All of this still assumes that you rolled 0 successes.

[Mike Holmes]

Sure, you can implement stuff like that, and it will work. But that throws in breakpoints, which I'm personally not fond of.

How about on a failure you roll again, and on a second failure you fumble. I like those sorts of rules. Simple to remember, and keeps skill and difficulty in the calculation. And keeps people from trying things that they have no talent for unless they are desperate.

Mike

[Lyrax]

Actually, the fumble rule is that you must fail and have TWO ones showing.

Also, skill usually decreases your TN, not increase your dice.  In these cases, increased skill means less chance of a failure, but, if you screw up, you will screw up horribly.  Why's this?  Probably because you're used to doing a lot better, so anything less than that seems like a botch.