Unworthy

[Enoch]

Hiyo everybody!

I'm in a sort of in a moist pool of oatmeal at the moment.  This pool of oatmeal is my RPG idea Unworthy.  While a pool of oatmeal can be pretty soothing, it can also be pretty deadly if it's too deep...

Sigh, I thought I had a witty little metaphor going, but it totally lost it's steam.

I'll start over.  I have a setting.  I love my setting.  My players love my setting.  I would hope others will love my setting.  But... I don't have a rule set.  I've ran the game the game with the Window and Theatrix, but like many mildly insane people I have this irrational plan of 'publishing' my game on the internet as a PDF.  So I can't just use them, because I want the whole game to be made be me.

Anyway, I'm having a problem coming up with ideas for the rules and I need some inspiration or something.

The basic rundown of Unworthy is that dimensional beings came to our modern world and started to 'kidnap' people causing them to vanish instantly.  A few people were left behind because of various reasons, mostly because the majority of society has labeled them something less than the average citizen.  Minors, seniors, handicapped, the terminally ill, convicts, and the insane.  Leaving behind only the 'social misfits' of Earth, the strange beings left.  But for some reason they left behind a few of their kind making an dangerous and unstable world even more so.

In the game the universe is like an onion with each layer being a different dimension.  When creatures in a dimension dreams, they somehow enter the dimension below them, but only in a very uncontrolled and totally intangible way.  The abductors were from the dimension above Earth's and somehow figured out how to actively interact with Earth.  Whatever technique they used caused a very powerful disturbance on Earth's dimension causing aspects of the dimension below it to flow up into Earth.  Thus strange phenomena and creatures have been sighted in the aftermath, and so have a newly empowered group of people with wondrous abilities.

Anyway, I have a few moods and atmospheres that I like to emphasize when running Unworthy.
•   Hopelessness: Society has fallen a great degree and it will take it quite a while to get it back to where it once was.
•   Reality: The 'dreams' flowing into Earth do not cause things to be come vague or ambiguous, instead it makes sharper and more concrete.  This one is really hard to explain, and even harder to actually implement in the game.
•   Society:  Small groups have started to form coming together for mutual protection.  Characters have the chance to influence or lead these groups and therefore have a hand in crafting society.

To put this games in GNS terms (just because I can) it will be a mixture of narrative and simulationist leaning towards simulation a little bit more.  The rule system I'm designing needs to be able to handle lethal combat, powerful but subtle supernatural abilities, and spiritual purity.  There's some other stuff it needs to but I'm getting tired and can't think of them at this moment.

So in conclusion I'm basically asking how you come up with rule systems, and how you shape them to fit a game's premise and such.  Where do you get inspiration for something like this?  What advice can you give me about this subject?

<Insert usual apology of rambling and bad grammar here>

-Joshua

[rafael]

So in conclusion I'm basically asking how you come up with rule systems, and how you shape them to fit a game's premise and such.  Where do you get inspiration for something like this?  What advice can you give me about this subject?

<Insert usual apology of rambling and bad grammar here>

-Joshua

Hello, Joshua.  I feel odd welcoming you to the Forge, as I still feel like a neophyte myself.

I've developed my own rules system, though many of the mechanics I've employed were actually appropriated or inspired by the work of other game designers I admire and respect.

The rules for the game I designed began as a fairly generic and unfocused melange of different ideas and concepts, but as I played the game, and noted what worked and what didn't, and revised the rules, and played them again, I found that the rules began to match the game's theme and tone and concept.

In essence, I focused on what the game was about, and ignored all of the rules that I had created, save those which also focused on what the game was about.  Culling the deadweight made the game more fun during playtesting, and now that playtesting's over, it's just a fun game to play with friends -- which is all I ever wanted.

I'd say that for me, what really did the trick was summarizing the game's themes and concepts in a paragraph (ignoring setting and guns and so forth, and just focusing on what gameplay feels like), and working the rules out from the concept.

I don't know if this will help or not, but if you'd like specific examples, PM me and we can talk about it (hate to get long-winded during the first response, particularly when there will be many other excellent responses within short order).

Good luck, and welcome again.

-- Rafael

[Andrew Martin]

I've ran the game the game with the Window and Theatrix, but like many mildly insane people I have this irrational plan of 'publishing' my game on the internet as a PDF.  So I can't just use them, because I want the whole game to be made be me.

When a builder makes a house, does the builder make the bath tubs from porcelain and steel? When a potter makes a pot, does the potter dig their own clay for the pot? Does a cobbler making a shoe, slaughter an animal and tan it's hide to get the leather for the shoe? So be like the examples, use a existing system to run your setting. It will save you lots of time and effort, and you won't go mad. :) I'd suggest using Theatrix or the Window, because you seem to have got good results from them.

[Christoffer Lernö]

It will save you lots of time and effort, and you won't go mad.

Are you suggesting game designing gives you checks in Cthulhu Mythos? :)

Incidentally I agree with you Andrew.

[rafael]

So be like the examples, use a existing system to run your setting. It will save you lots of time and effort, and you won't go mad.

Totally.  Designing your own game can take a lot of time, and it's a lot of work.  It's like setting up your own PC -- it can take a while, and if it's your first time, you're going to make a lot of mistakes, and you may have to start over (and you may have to do that more than once -- I can tell you this from personal experience).  It can be a real hassle.

Of course, if you let someone else set up your PC, then you're not going to learn anything about how PCs are set up.  I think that what I've learned more than makes up for the expenditure of time and energy.

Just something to consider.

[Jake Norwood]

I'm actually going to chime in and say the opposite--

Build it yourself, man. The system for a game is SO important, moreso even than Ron's GNS essay says it is. System is what makes a game special. The setting is just the package. Sure, it looks nice and convinces me to play a game, but the system has to integrate the setting, or you're dealing with two things instead of one, and the incongruity will be felt.

Take FVLMINATA. The system is (almost) perfect for what it's trying to do--create Rome. On the other hand, look at elements of any game, and you'll see the opposite: Combat in WoD, Skills in CoC (or, better yet, d20 CoC), and so on.

Many indie games have an advantage over this because their systems are so focused (sometimes overly so, limiting the lifespan of a campaign, but that is rarely an issue with games that people intend to play for less than a month).

The games mechanics should:
-reward and mechanically promote the sort of behaviour and mood you've declared as key (hopelessness, etc).
-be entertaining and stimulating, again in the areas that you deem important. FVLMINATA has great social interaction rules, making a debate in the forum as exciting (even moreso, really) than combat. TROS has nifty combat and those spiritual attributes. Sorcerer makes dealing with a demon something that is worth rolling for. In other words, don't make players roll for stuff that doesn't push the game as you see it forward, and get them making decisions and rolling dice when the focus elements of the system arise.

If you aren't trying to publish this, though, there's no reason not to steal elements from lots of game and put together your own hodge-podge that does all of the above. Just make sure that the system is build to promote the goals of the game.

Jake

ps. on the Sim/Narrative note, something that I am really into, make the reward system Simmy and the mechanics Narrativvy, and you'll be on the right track.

[Paul Czege]

Hey Joshua,

I like your setting and moods/atmospheres. Your sensibilities are clearly very much in alignment with my own. I also think I understand your pool of oatmeal, but maybe not the same way that you do, so forgive me for a roundabout approach...

I think your key issue, the one that's stalling you out, isn't designing rules "...to handle lethal combat, powerful but subtle supernatural abilities, and spiritual purity." I think your key issue is that of effectively delivering genre to the players. People with a decent level of gaming experience are generally aware, even if only unconsciously, that a game cannot deliver genre through play. And since your game has a custom genre, that means you're in the position of trying to decide how gameplay will produce suitable events. I think prospective designers typically evaluate both speak softly and big stick options:

Speak Softly

1) Game fiction and/or expository text will teach the players what the setting is like, and what kinds of themes, events, and behaviors are appropriate for protagonists.

2) The GM's handling of NPC's will elicit genre-appropriate responses from players.

Big Stick

1) The game mechanics will deliver consequences, a gauntlet of negative reinforcement that will train players to stay in-genre.

2) The game will have character and reward mechanics that provoke genre-appropriate play.

Personally, I think the choice is a no brainer. Players don't read game fiction; you'll be lucky if the GM does. Your described mechanical requirements make me think you're leaning toward a more enforced genre, with a GM empowered to deliver consequences to players and characters. I think that model doesn't work very well at all. In my experience, players don't long maintain interest in such games. Players are interested in the options available to character significance, not the constraints. I say, start with character and reward mechanics.

Paul

[Enoch]

Thanks everyone for their responses.  It seems to be thinning out that oatmeal.

Jake I'm not sure what you mean by narrative mechanics and simmy rewards.  Can you give me a small example about what you mean?  I have a vauge notion about what you're talking about, but...

Rafael, this is a little off topic, but the first time I put together my computer it worked :) .  I did mount the mother board wrong, but I found out right after I did it so it wasn't a big deal.  Your metaphor made perfect sense to me though.

Paul you're right about the lethality, power, etc. thing.  I don't really need rules that much.  I just need to fit the rules to the theme of the game.  Unfortunately that requires a lot more creative effort (at least for me).  Fortunately I love challenges especially ones that work my imagination.

Thanks again everyone, your suggestions have helped me narrow down my thought processes.

BTW: I'm not publishing this game really (at least not at first), it will be open to everybody for free in PDF format.

I'll keep you guys posted on my progress...

-Joshua

[Valamir]

BTW: I'm not publishing this game really (at least not at first), it will be open to everybody for free in PDF format.

My friend...that *IS* "published" both by the criteria of The Forge and U.S. Copyright Law.

Compensation is not required to be considered "published"

[rafael]

Rafael, this is a little off topic, but the first time I put together my computer it worked :) .  I did mount the mother board wrong, but I found out right after I did it so it wasn't a big deal.  Your metaphor made perfect sense to me though.

Hey, that's great.  I'll give you a case of cheap beer if you want to build a couple for me.  I'm thinking about setting up a home network.

But seriously, I hope you have as much success with designing your own system, if that's what you decide to do.

One thing I can't recommend enough: Study other systems.  Study the popular mainstream systems, and study independent games' systems as well.  Read everything you can.  Consider what elements you appreciate, and what elements you could do without.  Then decide why.

Worked for me, anyhow.

-- Rafael

[Mike Holmes]

One thing I can't recommend enough: Study other systems.  Study the popular mainstream systems, and study independent games' systems as well.  Read everything you can.  Consider what elements you appreciate, and what elements you could do without.  Then decide why.

Amen.

If you want to build a better moustrap, you have to first know what the state of the art mousetrap looks like, and all the foundations upon which the theory was built to get to that technology. Otherwise you'll just get last year's mousetrap.

Study!

Mike

[Enoch]

I might I have been able to build my first PC without a problem, but I once plugged a network card into a modem and got it stuck.  It was a very embarrassing moment and I was railed about my idiocy by my friends for a while about it.  ::hangs head in shame::

Anyway, I have been studying.  Right now I have about 20 differant systems on my shelf, and I only have half of them with me.  I haven't read them all yet..., but I bought most of them from Gen Con.  I'm familiar with most of the games talked about on the Forge.  You are absolutely right about it helping out though.  Hmm... studying I like calling it that.

Valamir: Well I kind of figured that, but it just sounds weird.

-Joshua

[Jake Norwood]

Jake I'm not sure what you mean by narrative mechanics and simmy rewards.  Can you give me a small example about what you mean?  I have a vauge notion about what you're talking about, but...

We'll use TROS as an example, as it's credited for being an excellent sim/nar hybrid (so I hear...). TROS's reward system is narrativist--Spiritual Attributes are the reward, and you get them by driving forth the story in a narrativist fashion. Thus the players will me rewarded for making narrativist choices. The mechanics are heavy on the sim side of things, though, because I think that sim mechanics (or at least the "good" ones) prompt players to be thoughtful and to think things through "rationally."

Does that clarify it?

Jake