About the way you "design" game!

[Seth L. Blumberg]

To me, octaNe is precisely the sort of game that Ron is talking about. I picked it up, I read it, and I said to my friend Mike, "Hey, Mike, I want you to run this game. I don't want to run it, I want to play it, because I have this really cool character idea." (Alas, he hasn't. Maybe someday he will.)

So it does happen.

[Jason Lee]

Ok, enough lurking, I actually have a somewhat strong opinion on this topic.

To return to the original question:

I would like to know how everybody design there games. What I mean it's do you design your games as a player or as a gamemaster?

Personally, I design my game the way I master them not the way I necessarily play them. When I play a game as a player I adapt my style of play to the "gamemaster" and to the rules of the game but when I master a game I generally adapt the system to be fast and story oriented.

When I "design" a game or a rule system I always think about it at a gamemaster level, not at a player level. Anybody doing it at a player level?

I think that if a GM is part of your game's design you have to keep the GM's ability to create a story in your setting in mind, or your game will be fundamentally dysfunctional.  For example, if the setting of your game is geared towards mystery stories including moderately powerful "view the past" type abilities in your magic system (or devices) will hinder the ability of the GM to craft the prefered type of story in your setting (without cheaping the players out of their cool stuff and adding the greatest bane to effective play - frustration).

If you don't plan for the GM's likely plots and just focus on what would be fun for the players you'll probably miss something vital and introduce this kind of inconsistency.

Back when I was a more irritating player I though Mage: the Ascension was a nifty game (I can do anything I want)...now that I GM I hate it - the World of Darkness setting is ripe for intrigue-style stories but the low level and often limitless scope of divination, teleportation and mind control abilities make the system completely broken for running the style of plots I prefer.

[Andrew Martin]

I think that if a GM is part of your game's design you have to keep the GM's ability to create a story in your setting in mind, or your game will be fundamentally dysfunctional.  For example, if the setting of your game is geared towards mystery stories including moderately powerful "view the past" type abilities in your magic system (or devices) will hinder the ability of the GM to craft the prefered type of story in your setting (without cheaping the players out of their cool stuff and adding the greatest bane to effective play - frustration).

Hi, Cruciel.
Welcome to The Forge!

Just a thought about powers like divination and mind reading; what about if the players were given the power to describe what their characters find on a successful use of their power? Sure, an uncooperative player could shortcircuit the plot straight away, but the player could equally as well put extra complications into the plot.

[Jason Lee]

Hi, Cruciel.
Welcome to The Forge!

Hey, thanks.

Just a thought about powers like divination and mind reading; what about if the players were given the power to describe what their characters find on a successful use of their power? Sure, an uncooperative player could shortcircuit the plot straight away, but the player could equally as well put extra complications into the plot.

My example was highly personal and (if I'm understanding the terminology correctly) Simulationist.

Let me see if I can twist it to other playing styles.

I have very little experience with Narrativist style games, but your method implies this to me (insert previous terminology disclaimer).  I'm sure this would work great if the game was steered from the GM point of view to allow this.  If the game is design for the final destination of the story to be basically where the GM selected when the game started he'll need veto points or some other method to control these abilities.  If the ending is open ended and determined by player consensus these abilities probably aren't a concern for this type of game.

If the game is supposed to be a Gamist who-dun-it then resolving divination abilities the way you describe is doomed failure, in my opinion.

As I see it the GM's role in most games is to define Premise and Setting; the players role is to drive their character(s).  I've never played a game with a reversed setup, but it might be interesting.

Designing from Character then back up to Setting and Premise, just seems like a method that will introduce all sorts of inconsistency in game design.