Initiative question

[ShaneNINE]

My understanding of TROS initiative (corrections, please:

1. Combatants declare offense or defense.
2. Combatants who are attacking get a turn in reverse order of Reflex.

How, if at all, is that different from the more traditional:

1. Combatants roll initiative.
2. Combatants get a turn in initiative order - they can attack, or if the game system allows it, opt to defend.

I guess it really depends on if the game system allows some kind of active defense during a turn. D&D, for example, is right out.

[Valamir]

Its hugely different.  First of all most combat in TROS (in my experience) easily breaks up into 1:1 duels, so the Reflex check is usually irrelevant.

So there is no random or predestined order to combat.  You decide if you are attacking or if you aren't.

If you are and your opponent isn't then there is a normal attack vs defense exchange.  If you aren't but your opponent is than there is a normal attack vs defense exchange.  This comes about entirely by choice not a random "who goes first".

If you are and your opponent is also then you have the highly dangerous, highly bloody simulaneous attack.  Some games attempt to build simul attacks into the rules as a special maneuver (Pendragon for instance calls it a Berserk attack).  In TROS on the other hand, this situation comes about in exactly the same way as it does in a real fight, by two people deciding to open up on each other at the same time with no need for a special rule.

If you aren't and your opponent isn't then there is no attack at all that round...something that almost never happens in a roll and go system but which happens as frequently as not in TROS.

Further Initiative is NOT, repeated for importance NOT repeated each round.  For every exchange following the first who is the attacker and who is the defender is determined by the results of who succeeded in the previous exchange...the winner of the exchange siezes the initiative.  Initiative is not used again until the combatants are seperated and disengaged from each other (as with a Full Evasion).

So they aren't even remotely in the same ballpark.

[ShaneNINE]

If you are and your opponent isn't then there is a normal attack vs defense exchange.  If you aren't but your opponent is than there is a normal attack vs defense exchange.  This comes about entirely by choice not a random "who goes first".

I'm with you with everything you said except the part above. Well, in terms of a system like D&D, yes, I agree with the above. Let me provide an example of a system I'm more familiar with so that we can be on the same branch.

Let's take HârnMaster as an example. Combatants face off in an order determined by an experience/combat stat. No die rolling. That's like facing off in reverse order of Reflex in TROS.

Whoever goes first can attack, do nothing, or wait to defend. If he attacks, the other guy can block, dodge, counter strike (same as both of them attacking at once), or ignore. If the first guy waits to defend then it's the other guy's turn. That's almost the same as in TROS.

The biggest difference I see is that in HM if you opt to defend instead of attacking you basically forfeit your turn cause you would have gotten a chance to defend anyway. In TROS, you can put everything you have into defense, but in HM (and similar games) the system somewhat forces you to evenly "split your die pool" (so to speak).

Is that what you're getting at?

[Valamir]

Whoever goes first can attack, do nothing, or wait to defend. If he attacks, the other guy can block, dodge, counter strike (same as both of them attacking at once), or ignore. If the first guy waits to defend then it's the other guy's turn. That's almost the same as in TROS.

Not at all the same actually.  You're missing that attacker and defender is set by choice.  9 times out of 10 you will never even reference your characters Reflex stat in TROS when determining initiative.

In fact, in all the games I've played, I'm trying to think of a time where it was an issue.  It just isn't.  This is emphatically not a "go in stat order" system like Harn or Champions et.al.

I have the worlds lowest Reflex I throw a red die.  You have the worlds highest Reflex, you throw a white die.  I'm attacking, you're defending on the first exchange.  On the second exchange whose attacking and defending depends on who won the first exchange.  If your defense beat my attack than you're attacking and I'm defending.  If it didn't that I attack again.  I might attack 12 times in a row and you never get to make a single attack at all (quite possible if you're wearing enough armor to keep my successful attacks from killing you).  Then you might finally win an exchange, make an attack against me which fails, and it goes right back to me attacking you...all without ever again dropping the red/white die or referring to Reflex.

[note:  the above ignores the possibility of attempting to buy Initiative which adds another layer to the possible permutations]

There simply is no preordained circular Initiative order either from a random initiative roll or a stat.

[Bob Richter]

In fact, in all the games I've played, I'm trying to think of a time where it was an issue.  It just isn't.  This is emphatically not a "go in stat order" system like Harn or Champions et.al.

It only matters in case of a red-red, where it's the difference between life and death...

Since "Bob always throws red," I've had quite a bit of experience with it.

[ShaneNINE]

Ok, got it now. Thanks.

[Lance D. Allen]

One small but important detail that Valamir is getting wrong.

Situation: I drop red, you drop white. I attack because that is what I declared. You defend, because that is what you declared. You win the exchange, which means you have the Initiative.

Initiative does not mean that you automatically attack. You may choose to defend, or do nothing. It simply means that you get to do it first.

The reason that I bring this up is because many people assume that if you lose the initiative, you must defend, and that if you have the initiative, you must attack. This is the way things are normally done, but on every round AFTER you have dropped dice to determine offense/defense, you are allowed to choose whether you are on the offense or defense. However, if you choose to attack when you do not have the initiative, you are taking quite a risk, though sometimes a reasonable risk if your armor is heavy enough.

[Valamir]

Well, not so much wrong as trying to simplify the number of variables being explained at once.