That first step

[Wulf]

Maybe this should be in the 'Actual Play' forum, but I thought I'd post here since there isn't really a lot of 'play' in it. It's just my observations and questions about our first session of Donjon.

With none of us too sure what was going on, Andy (referee) ran us through the rulebook scenario. I ran two characters, both human, a 'Collector' ('thief' is such an ugly word...) with both Adroitness and Discernment 6 (we all use the Player-Chosen Random method) and Primary ability 'Find Secret Stuff' and a Fire Shaman with Cerebrality 6, Adroitness 5, Primary ability 'Dodge Anything' and two Secondaries 'Healing Spirits' and 'Fire Spirits' for her magic. John (other player) ran a Rhyming Sorcerer. I don't remember his stats, but his schtick was his magic always had to be in verse (excessively long verse, in my opinion).

OK, after all that, the point. I have, from our brief excursion into Donjon, decided on the Three Rules of Donjon:

1. Nine dice is not enough.
2. No matter how many dice you roll, you need a ten (on D10).
3. Even if you hit him, you'll probably not hurt him.

These were based on buying stuff in the village, plus three encounters in the woods. In the town we did OK, spent too much Wealth by exaggerating the difficulty of buying stuff.

In the woods the Sorcerer decided we needed to trap someone and interrogate them to find the Mushroom King, so he set up an illusion lure of a helpless traveller (himself). He specified that it attracted Goblins, with a Mushroom (??? it sounded right at the time), equal in numbers to us (which the Ref decided meant 4, since he included the lure). Unfortunately, he forgot to specify they appeared in front of us, were surprised by us, and that we had the Initiative. So they appeared behind us, ambushed us, and took the initiative (thanks to winning on a Discernment roll). They were damn tough buggers too! Their first attack took my Shaman down to zero Flesh Wounds AND zero Whe. in one go! We spent ages trying to kill them off... My Collector proved rule No. 3 time and time again, ALWAYS hitting, rarely damaging (once failing a roll of 12 dice vs. 2). The Sorcerer was rolling up to 18 dice fire attacks, and still not knocking them down... Since my shaman couldn't get more than 1 die success with gathering magic, when the fight was over she tried to create a firebladed shortsword to last all day, and of course succeeded - she was fine except under stress...

Anyway, we got them, wandered on, and found a tree with something up on top (remember?). The levitating Sorcerer got dived on, the other two shot at the giant Eagle. Sorcerer did nothing useful, my two hit, so it dived on us. The Shaman went for an Adroitness hit, figuring that would render it flightless, and fried every feather off it, adroitness zero! Now... has anyone figured out how to run pets in Donjon? My Collector scored enough successes, I was going to have the eagle cowed, surrendering, obedient and a pet for life... Instead she stabbed it.

Then I decided the Collector scouted ahead for ambushes, and found one, a giant spider web, spider and corpses, but forgot to mention the corpses had treasure. No challenge, two stabs did the trick.

The lessons...

1. State facts VERY CLEARLY and THINK about them first!
2. gather up lots of bonus dice.
3. Find Secret Stuff is absolutely marvellous for looting :-)
4. Remember what I've read here - I forgot that a zero attribute gets 1 die resistance (and add one to the other side).

Lastly, a question. If you get successes and save them for later, can you split them up between multiple related actions? The levitating Sorcerer had 12 successes 'spare' when the Eagle arrived.

Wulf

[jdagna]

I'm not sure I'd agree with the last two of your Donjon Rules.

The first one is right on... in my experience,  you need at least 15 dice for a first-level character.  I think the number of dice is the primary weakness of Donjon's system, especially as levels go up.

The second one - always needing a 10 (using d10) - isn't true, except in very large die pools (12+).  10s help, but we have had plenty of successes with a high die at 8 or 9 (even rolling 6 or so dice).

The third one, stating that you're not likely to do damage, really depends on the character.  It sounds like you didn't have any combat machine characters, so it might have been true for your group.  But a barbarian (high Vir) with a Worth 3 or 4 weapon can do some mighty damage pretty regularly.

As for your four lessons, they sound about right to me!  A wicked GM can easily turn facts around to bite you if he wants to.  On the other hand, it sounds like he might have gone a bit far...

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Wulf,

While your lessons are enlightening, your "Three Rules" didn't ring true for me. In the games of Donjon I've run, combat's tended to be exceedingly nasty for the enemies, with damage flying left and right. The probabilities in Donjon are wonky, though, and I'm sure things went different for your group.

As for splitting up successes, it's not mentioned in the game text. That is to say - go for it if your Donjon Master says it's ok. I don't see how it could hurt. I will say, though, that you can keep using successes like this:

Roll A gives 5 successes.
Roll B gets 5 extra dice, and gives 7 successes.
Roll C gets 7 extra dice...

As long as the actions are related, you can run amok with the dice.

[Wulf]

We found no problem in splitting successes, but didn't get much chance to accumulate over more than 2 rolls (it would have been 3, Sharp Ears, Sneak Through Shadows and Swordfight, but my Collector failed to win the Swordfight, at 12 dice to 5 or something :-( ).

We definitely found 10s were very frequent, and became the decider (mind you, I'm well known for rolling the wrong end of the scale, low when I need high and vice versa). True we had no combat monsters, but my characters had Adroitness 6 & 5, and combat skills 3 & 2, so rolling 9 dice and 7 SOUNDED right (and was the point of the first law). Admittedly, a character with Initiative 7 gets a lot of chances...

The ref wasn't being bad to us, we deliberately set the session up to stretch the system till it squeaked. We didn't die, even with every die roll in the open. He also provided us with lots of ideas how to use OUR successes. I maintained a policy of non-interference, then wise-assed after the others had declared their facts, offering my suggestions. I was particularly worried when John, after he'd succeeded in a Discernment roll to avoid the eagle getting surprise, stated his facts as 'There's only one of it, the nest is empty except for an egg'. However, Andy (ref) allowed us the treasure trove regardless (I took an egg, actually, a one-use Summon monster level 4 with one curse).

We also got some good laughs, best line of the night being 'How do you torture a mushroom?". I guess you had to be there...

Wulf

[Mike Holmes]

The first one is right on... in my experience,  you need at least 15 dice for a first-level character.  I think the number of dice is the primary weakness of Donjon's system, especially as levels go up.

No way! This may be one of it's greatest strengths! Wel,, obviously this sort of thing is a preference thing; but here I am saying that buckets o' dice are cool to some players.

Mike "42d6 Move-Through" Holmes

[Wulf]

I think 10-15 dice is about the maximum useful number for D10. After that there are too many ties (I'm assuming both sides have vaguely equal numbers). With D20 you might get some use out of more.

With unequal sides, a superiority of maybe 10 is about as good as it gets!

Wulf

[Clinton R. Nixon]

I think 10-15 dice is about the maximum useful number for D10. After that there are too many ties (I'm assuming both sides have vaguely equal numbers).

Bu.. bu... but ties are the most fun part of resolution. Really. More ties more mean eventual successes which means more facts or dice with seems to equal more fun. Plus, you have that anticipation: "What do you have? Ok, I've got a 10, and another 10. Ok, I match your 9, and then that eight, too..." The more ties, the more I get all worked up.

Wulf, I'd love to know why you view ties in Donjon as a negative thing. Maybe there's something I'm missing.

[Wulf]

I think 10-15 dice is about the maximum useful number for D10. After that there are too many ties (I'm assuming both sides have vaguely equal numbers).

Wulf, I'd love to know why you view ties in Donjon as a negative thing. Maybe there's something I'm missing.

Oh, ties themselves are good, I agree. We had a tie 10, 10, 9, 8, 8 - with only about 8 dice vs. 7. But when you constantly get 6, 7, 8 or more dice tied (as you will with large numbers of smaller dice), it becomes a one-throw contest. Whomever wins the first non-tied die will obliterate the opposition in one go. Which sounds too quick...

Wulf

[Wulf]

Second game today, same setup. Same observations on dice too, 9 wasn't enough, and 10s dominated. the character who kept hitting and not damaging last week kept getting hit but not hurt this week...

Somethings were better balanced, all magic gathering rolls were about the same, around 4-6 dice successes. We still found it slow going though, counting up how many dice to roll, then checking dice against each other.

Unfortunately, that'll be the last game this year, and maybe for longer (one of the three of us who were playing can't make it any more due to family commitments).

Wulf