Vespertine: Sin & Teenagers

[Jonathan Walton]

Originally, this game concept was called "Vesperteen," a pun on the word "vespertine" (meaning "having to do with night").  However, I soon discovered that very few people were familiar with "vespertine," so the pun just didn't work.  So, I think I'm going to go with the actual word.

As I imagine the setting & tone, it's something like "Little Fears" + "Nightbane" + "Changeling" + "Buffy" + "Seven" + "Teen Wolf" + "Sorceror" + "kill puppies for satan."  It's basically about the horrors of growing up as a teenager, tempted by the sins of sex, drugs, and rock & roll while dealing with puberty and all the changes you go through.  But, on top of normal problems like zits and trying to get a date for the Prom, you have to deal with undeath, lycanthropy, or being a martian love child.

Here's how it works right now:

The game takes place during the Seven Ages of Man, that is, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, and 19-years-old, the seven years where you can correctly be called a "teenager."  During this time, you have to deal with being tempted by the Seven Deadly Sins (Pride, Greed, Lust, Envy, Gluttony, Anger, and Sloth) each of which is associated with a specific kind of desire and a specific kind of supernatural power.

Pride -- Wanting to feel special -- Martians
Greed -- Wanting control -- Demons
Lust -- Wanting pleasure -- Gypsies
Envy -- Self-hate & angst -- Vampires
Gluttony -- Wanting to destroy -- Plaguebearers
Anger -- Blind wrath -- Werefolk
Sloth -- Fear of others -- Nightmares

Now, in this cosmology, supernatural creatures are just humans who have given in to a particular Sin so much that they have lost their humanity.  Werewolves and Gypsies were once human and mortal, but they've gone over to the dark side and now must live seperately from humankind.  The werefolk are not completely dominated by Anger, they can also feel Lust or even true Love, but they have a rage inside them that will not go away.  It's just part of their nature.

But onto our protagonists, the Vesperteens.  During the Seven Ages, the teens are at risk of turning to the dark side of Sin and becoming monsters just like all the other supernaturals.  Once they turn 20, they're in the clear and become adults just like everybody else, but from 13-19, they are in grave danger, due to temptation and the confusing feelings of adolescence.

There is a large pool of black tokens placed in the center of the table.  Each character gets a character sheet that shows the Seven Deadly Sins.  Now, each time a character feels sinful (gives in to Anger, Lust, Pride, etc.), they take a token from the center and place it in the appropriate "Sin pool" on their sheet.  Then, you can spend tokens to power supernatural abilities based on the appropriate Sin.  I'll probably end up developing a Nobilis-esque table of guidelines for these, but I don't imagine you'd spend more than 3-4 tokens at a time.

Also, while the tokens remain in your pool, they serve kind of like attributes.  A person "charged" with 3 points of Anger, will win in a fight vs. someone who only has 1 point.  Of course, there's strategy involved too.  If the 1 point of Anger is spent on some supernatural ability (like growing fangs and chewing on the opponent's leg), the 3-point guy could be disabled before he gets a chance to act.

However, the more Sin you collect, the more you begin to resemble a monster.  Someone charged with 5 points of Lust would have an unearthly beauty with a supernatural attraction that few would be able to resist or call "human."  Sort of like the Vela from Harry Potter 4.  Scary stuff.  Heavily Envious teens start feeling a thirst for blood.  Gluttons begin to have infected postules on their body that spread the contagion.

Of course there has to be the risk of "going over to the dark side."  This is where I'm currently at a loss for mechanics.  I was thnking it would just involve gaining too much Sin of a particular type.  But then the player can choose to spend it on crazy supernatural stuff (which might not always be convenient, especially in public areas or in front of your parents) or not take additional Sin, even if they probably should (since it's the player's prerogative in the current model).  Any suggestions?

Also, I'm thinking that the only real Character Creation will involve players declaring what their characters' Good Intentions are (because, of course, the road to Hell is paved with them).  Characters are then defined by their aspirations, empowered by giving into their desires, and destroyed by getting addicted to Sin.  Sounds like a fun game, huh?

[szilard]

One big concern...

Despite the fact that that they are often associated with the supernatural, there is an actual group of people who are called Gypsies by many. Saying that they are the embodiment of the sin of Lust might turn some people off to the game. I knw White Wolf caught a lot of racism flack for their Gypsies book. You might want to use some sort of faerie creature instead?

Also, I'm not certain precisely what you mean by Plaguebearers.

As for your question, what if it was the use of the supernatural powers that moved you closer to the dark side? Say that the tokens you spend go into a particular pile... and when that pile hits a certain critical mass...

Stuart

[Jonathan Walton]

Oops, I meant to put in a note about the Gypsies, but forgot.  Yes, I realise that the name could be taken as being somewhat racist, but couldn't come up with a better term at the time.  The idea of using the Fair Folk is a good one, since they're also known for enchanting mortals and seducing them.  Consider the Gypsies swapped out for the Fae.  Sorry about that.

I don't particularly like the term "Plaguebearers" either.  I had originally called them "The Plague" or "The Contagion" but didn't like those terms very much.  The idea is basically a group of semi-lepers who carry this horrible disfiguring disease that also empowers them.  Jacked-up, ugly, infected mutant creatures.  I was also considering the possibility that their ultimate "monster" form might be that of giant locusts (as in the apocalyptic Biblical plagues).  What d'ya think?  They're intended to represent an exaggerated form of the teenage concern with appearance and zits and stuff.

Along with Sloth & Pride, Gluttony is one of the real "loser" Sins.  The Slothful become Nightmarish blobs of darkness and horror, the Prideful become dorky Star Trek aliens or cross-dressing Ziggy Stardust rock messiahs, and the Gluttons become the untouchable, infected lepers.  Of course, nothings to say that you can't have high ratings in SEVERAL Sins.  That's how you get Ziggy being a "leper messiah."  He's got high amounts of Lust & Pride, with tinges of Gluttony & Greed.

As for your "critical mass" suggestion, I had considered something like it, but hadn't quite imagined how it would work.  Your suggestion is a good one, but might be hard to do if the game's going to stay Fortuneless.  What you're describing sounds similar to the way Limit Breaks work in Exalted, but there you're rolling against a number that's slowly increasing.  Still, if Becky Sue knows that spending more Anger will turn her into a slobbering, hair-covered werecreature, wouldn't she just choose not to spend Anger?

It might work if there were some ways of triggering the stored Sin.  For instance, if you insult a boy with Pride 7, he'll probably disintegrate you with his alien mind powers.  That's how things should work.  But how can we work that into the mechanics without making the GM pick on players with high amounts of Sin accumulated.  Should I add some dice just to make the outbreaks of "monsterhood" more random and unpredictable?

[Paul Czege]

Hey Jonathan,

It might work if there were some ways of triggering the stored Sin. For instance, if you insult a boy with Pride 7, he'll probably disintegrate you with his alien mind powers. That's how things should work. But how can we work that into the mechanics without making the GM pick on players with high amounts of Sin accumulated. Should I add some dice just to make the outbreaks of "monsterhood" more random and unpredictable?

Zocchi makes a very cool d7 that I've been itching to use for a deadly sins game. See one pictured http://membres.lycos.fr/arjan/pip07.htm">here. Be warned though, Lou Zocchi has no distributor (long story), so the only way for prospective play group to get their hands on one would be from his booth at GenCon, or by contacting him directly:

Lou Zocchi
Gamescience
7604 Newton Dr, N. Biloxi MS 39532
phone 228 392 4177

Paul

[szilard]

I don't particularly like the term "Plaguebearers" either.  I had originally called them "The Plague" or "The Contagion" but didn't like those terms very much.  The idea is basically a group of semi-lepers who carry this horrible disfiguring disease that also empowers them.  Jacked-up, ugly, infected mutant creatures.  I was also considering the possibility that their ultimate "monster" form might be that of giant locusts (as in the apocalyptic Biblical plagues).  What d'ya think?  They're intended to represent an exaggerated form of the teenage concern with appearance and zits and stuff.

What about zombies? You could then go with the whole brain-eating-thing (for Gluttony) - and the physical image is pretty much the same, but it has a more coherent cultural referent.

As for triggering effects... I suppose you could keep it fortuneless. Here's one mechanic:

First you need a threshold. I'd use the character's age.

Now, say that you can only hold up to that threshold in tokens at any one time. This will cause some gradual expenditures, but it won't get everything you want.

Then what you do is say that certain acts can be Triggers. A Trigger has a sin and a strength associated with it.  A Mortal Insult, for instance could be a Pride (strength 9) Trigger.

If a 13 year old boy with Pride 7 is subjected to a Mortal Insult, the trigger strength is added to his pride and he must spend at least the number of Pride tokens by which that number exceeds his threshold. (In this case, he'd have to spend 3.) Note that the Trigger doesn't actually give you any real tokens.

The nice thing about this is that walking around with a sin at the threshold value turns you into a powder keg, but you can spend tokens and lower the immediate threat... at a cost.


Stuart

[ethan_greer]

Well, I can't really get into the idea of playing teenagers.  I was one, and that was quite enough, thanks!  :)

However, some ideas:

I always liked the Magic: The Gathering card Ragman.  That's what I picture when you talk about Plaguebearers - basically an old shambling figure, tattered hooded cloak drawn over the face, gnarled hands wrapped in filthy rags.  Brr!  So, "Ragmen" might be a good term to use for your plaguebearers, or lepers, or whatever they are.  Just a quick thought.

Also, for some cool locust imagery and usage, check out Jeff Smith's Bone comic book series.  The Lord of Locusts is a really cool nasty.

[Jonathan Walton]

Zocchi makes a very cool d7 that I've been itching to use for a deadly sins game.

Very cool indeed, but hard to get your hands on for the average player (and they don't look well-balanced either).  I thought about using D8s and trying to get the players to read the "8" sideways, as "infinity."  Just what the "infinity" side would stand for (transcending the monster? descending into eternal Sin?), I'm not sure, but something like that had crossed my mind.

What about zombies? You could then go with the whole brain-eating-thing (for Gluttony) - and the physical image is pretty much the same, but it has a more coherent cultural referent.

Hmm.  Not bad.  I'd have to be careful to distinguish the Zombies from the Vampires, since I don't want too many identical undead walking around, but it might work.  I also like silkworm's Ragmen/Scarecrow imagery, so I'll have to think about it.

As for your mechanic, it's not bad, but I'd probably end up simplifying the math and making it generally more intuitive.  I like the age threshold, which is something I'd played with before, so it's neat that you used it too.  Maybe I could have a randomly generated Trigger level (D8?) to compare against various things?  I'll have to play with a few things and see what I end up with.

[Andrew Martin]

Originally, this game concept was called "Vesperteen," a pun on the word "vespertine" (meaning "having to do with night").  However, I soon discovered that very few people were familiar with "vespertine," so the pun just didn't work.  So, I think I'm going to go with the actual word.

In England there used to be (or could still be) a motorcycle called the Vesper, and Teens used to ride them. IIRC they've been featured in some British movies about dope-dealers and young skin heads.

[Drew Stevens]

Question-

Is /every/ Teen a Vesperteen?  Or is it some subset of the teenage population?  I've the feeling it's the later from your description- in which case, what distinguishes those teens?  Anything?  Or does Fate simply have it in for them?

And are you tracking Sin as it's spent, or as it's accumulated, for the danger point?  Tracking Sin as it's spent allows for a more gradual slide to evil approach (which I think you're trying to play up).  OTOH, it's somewhat obnoxious book-keeping.

And finally, do the ages actually correspond to any of the Seven in any particular way, apart from being a numerical coinencedence?  Will your character's age have any mechanical bearing on resisting the Temptations?  I'd suggest that at each year of a given Vesperteen's life, one of the Sin's is especially vicious in it's temptation- not in any particular order for everyone (each player decides for themselves).  Passing that year, it becomes more difficult to be tempted by that particular Sin, or to gain Sin from it; perhaps only in conjunction with an unfaced Sin, or even just the Sin of the Year.  So that a 14 year old that already faced down their Anger and was dealing with Sloth would easily gain Sin from Sloth, but hardly ever from Anger... unless they were Angry in some way that faciliated their Slothfullness.

Or something. :)

[talysman]

interesting concept... as for the problems you express with gypsies... why not succubi/incubi? (incidentally, I am watching "incubus" right this very minute. I am almost to the part where shatner gets raped by a goat.)

I like stuart's idea of the zombies instead of plaguebearers ... or actually, ghouls!

[Drew Stevens]

Actually, that reminds me.

Instead of Martians for Pride, may I suggest the Djini?

As, in Islam (quoted from memory a friend of mine, as we were discussing religion)- Iblis (an equivelent of Satan) was an angel of Fire, who out of pride refused to bow to man, who was made from mud, despite God's orders to the contrary.  So Iblis was banished, and became the first Djinn, and originator of the race of Djini, who plague and hate man to this day.

More fitting that lil' green men.  And more terrifying, IMO- while Aliens /can/ be scary, not in the same was a once angelic being, wreathed in flames and with wings of surpassing sharp winds can be.

Course, that's also the Nobilis in me. :)

[Shreyas Sampat]

Supposing you made use of the Good Intentions as part of this 'going over the edge'... Maybe using Sin powers is "okay" if you do it based on a Good Intention, but if you don't, instead of letting you off the hook it just moves counters onto a different Sin, or into that threshold pool Stuart was talking about.

That has the problem that it magically makes using Sin powers ...sort of... free.  Maybe you can only use Sin powers in service of another Sin, or in service of an Intention, and there's some kind of degradation of points every time they get moved around...

[Jonathan Walton]

Thanks for all the great comments guys.  Really got me thinking a little more clearly about what I want.

Didn't know Vesper was a motorcycle.  What do people think of the name "Vespertine" or "Vesperteen" overall?  Is it evocative?  I could always pick something like "Young Monsters" (too much like Little Fears) or "I Was a Teenage Hellspawn" (and run the risk of being sued by Todd McFarlane).

Is /every/ Teen a Vesperteen?

Yep.  Sorry if this wasn't clear earlier.  I imagine the action taking place in a semi-rural, isolated community, where all the kids know each other, grew up together, and have few interactions with kids from other places.  Think Stephen King's "It," for a reference, or "The Body/Stand By Me."  Every kid in the community is a Vesperteen, and the kids either assume that it's universal, or that there's something special about the town they live in, as the great "Out There" comic series, if anyone's read it.

And are you tracking Sin as it's spent, or as it's accumulated, for the danger point?  Tracking Sin as it's spent allows for a more gradual slide to evil approach (which I think you're trying to play up).  OTOH, it's somewhat obnoxious book-keeping.

Well, using the accumulation method, once Sin is spent, I wouldn't bother to keep track of it.  What would matter would be the unspent Sin that you possess, so you could lower the risk of Going Monster by spending Sin, but spending Sin causes outbreaks of supernatural craziness and evil, so it wouldn't be something you could just do, without any consequences.

Then again, if we kept track of Sin spent, the kids would become Sin capacitors that would just explode into Monsters or unleash a whole ton of Sin when they neared maximum capacity.  Still not sure what method would work best, since I don't have the rest of the mechanics nailed down yet, but it sounds like we have two good options.

And finally, do the ages actually correspond to any of the Seven in any particular way, apart from being a numerical coinencedence?  I'd suggest that at each year of a given Vesperteen's life, one of the Sin's is especially vicious in it's temptation- not in any particular order for everyone (each player decides for themselves).

Man, you're getting ahead of me, but this is exactly where I was going to go.  My thought was to map the 7 Ages of Teen onto the traditional 7 Ages of Man, and maybe stick a Sin on each one as well.  But your idea of letting the players choose which Sin they will be particularly vulnerable to in a given year is a nice one.  Then, the game becomes about triumphing over your desires and reaching 20 by mastering all your Sins and becoming a mature individual.  Nice.  It also forces each character to deal with each Sin, so you can't just gloss over Lust or Gluttony if you don't happen to like it.

Since people's birthdays are at different points in the year, I was thinking of having something like a twisted Level System as the "experience" mechanic underlying the Ages, i.e. once you've mastered a Sin, you'd move on to the next Age, but there wouldn't be any huge rush to best Sins, because you'd grow older much faster, become an adult, and have to abandon the magical, dangerous world of your teenage years (think Peter Pan or Narnia).  Thoughts?

In response to the further suggestions of Monster types, I agree with pretty much everything that's been suggested, but am not sure how to fit everything together.  I think I'm going to go with "Nymphs" for Lust, because they're Fae-like while being based in Classical Myth and provide a bit of variety.  I suppose there will be male Nymphs too, but I'm not sure what to call them.  Satyrs?

While I like the Djini suggestion, I think I've decided that Demons of all kinds fit ALL the Sin categories too well.  Pride was the chief Sin of Iblis/Satan/Lucifer, but they are often depicted as temptors of both Greed & Lust.  Demons are supposed to be the incarnation of Sin, basically, so it might be best to leave them as a super-Monster category.  Maybe Monsters who become addicted to Sin of all types end up becoming Demons (after they die?).

Supposing you made use of the Good Intentions as part of this 'going over the edge'...

Hmm... I like your suggestion, but let me twist it a bit and get some feedback.  If the road to Hell is paved with Good Intentions, shouldn't any attempts to use Sin for good just backfire horribly?  It's like the One Ring.  You want to use Sin for righteous purposes, but it cannot be so used, always twisting what you intend into something dark and horrible.  Sin is ultimately about selfishness (here I'm ganking some In Nomine theology), so maybe if you use it selflessly, at your own expense for the good of others, it always goes wrong?  I'm not sure how this would work, mechanically.

Something else I worked up last night: what if each Monster/Sin type was also associated with a high school stereotype, and the amount of Sin you possessed would also determine your rank in the social heirarchy of various teenage factions.  This makes the Sin-Monster connections a bit more interesting as well.  See what you think.

Anger : Werefolk : Punks
Pride : Aliens : Geeks
Lust : Nymphs : Hippies
Greed : Gremlins/Goblins? : Student Council
Gluttony : Giants/Trolls? : Jocks
Sloth : Nightmares : Drop-Outs
Envy : Vampires : Goths

So now the Geeky Star Trek kids may actually have Alien characteristics and the Goths may actually contain a few Vampires.  Of course, these groups aren't completely exclusive, and the PCs wouldn't have to declare which ones they belonged to.  You could also fall out of favor with some of them by not maintaining a steady supply of their trademark Sin.  After all, nobody likes Punks who aren't Angry or Goths who aren't secretly jealous of all the popular kids.

Here's my Chart O' Sin & Popularity:

0 -- Loser
1 -- Outsider
2 -- Fringe
3 -- Accepted
4 -- Cool
5 -- Above
6 -- Beyond
7 -- Monster

So, if you were charged with 3 points of each type of Sin (impossible, if we go with your Age as max, because that would be 21 Sin), you could be accepted by every group in your school/community.  This makes for some interest social mechanics that are based on Sin as well.

Here's another thing I wan't to throw at you and see what you thought.  What if it was easier to gain Sin than it was to spend it?  For instance, what if you had 5 points of Anger, and wanted to ditch it before you went Monster-crazy.  So you do a 5-point Anger power, which drops you down to 4 Anger.  Then you do a 4-point Anger power that drops you down to 3 Anger.  If you want to go all the way to 0 or 1 Anger, you're going to have to cause a whole ton of destruction and violence to get there.  In fact, you might gain back more Sin than you lost just through dealing with the consequences of all that Anger spent.

This is shaping up nicely :)  Keep the comments coming.

[Shreyas Sampat]

Well, using the accumulation method, once Sin is spent, I wouldn't bother to keep track of it. What would matter would be the unspent Sin that you possess, so you could lower the risk of Going Monster by spending Sin, but spending Sin causes outbreaks of supernatural craziness and evil, so it wouldn't be something you could just do, without any consequences.

Then again, if we kept track of Sin spent, the kids would become Sin capacitors that would just explode into Monsters or unleash a whole ton of Sin when they neared maximum capacity. Still not sure what method would work best, since I don't have the rest of the mechanics nailed down yet, but it sounds like we have two good options.

I think that the way you deal with this says a lot about what your game thinks of Sin.  Is Sin something you feel, or something you do?  The first option says that Sin is a thing that taints your mind, and acting on it spreads the taint to the world.  The second says that dark emotions only create a potential for Sin to happen.

On Ash Nazg and Good Intentions:
Brilliance.  This sounds awesome.  It reminds me a little of Inspiration/Corruption in Alyria, so you might want to talk to Seth about that - using Corruption will resolve a conflict instantly, bypassing all the rest of the mechanic, but it must be in a way that favors Evil.  Similarly, Good Intentions could always backfire.  Sure, it lets off the Sin pressure valve, but ultimately, the consequences will be far worse than it you were doing it with knowledge of what you were doing.