Mongrel

[xiombarg]

Okay, I know Mongrel is only supposed to be an example, but I have a few questions.

1. Character creation made my head hurt. You had me up until the Expertise section. I don't understand how ANY of the sample characters were derived from the rules as given. Look at Vooruk: I have no idea how he got a 6 in Rend when the highest value you can assign to something is 3. Perhaps because I'm a computer person -- I don't think "assign" is the same as "add", which I think is what's going on here -- that is, if you "assign" a 3 to an Expertise that is already 1, it's a 4, rather than replacing the 1 with a 3, which is what "assign" would mean to me. Personally, I think it'd be clearer if all attributes started at 0 and you "added" amounts here and there, rather than "assigning" amounts -- if that's what's going on here, I'm still not sure. (And even then, the whole ABCD matrix gives me a headache.)

An extended chargen example, step-by-step, like some of the better White Wolf games do, would be good, I think. Ron comments that character creation is fun -- character creation that I can't understand kinda ruins my fun. ;-D

2. Again, perhaps this is my CS degree talking, but the complex task resolution seems ambigous in spots. It costs an Action Point to go the the top of the list... but what if you're in the middle of the list, having gone down from, say, the first one. That is, if the list is:

Joe
Mary <-- who I'm about to do something for
Fred

and I've just done Joe's action, and Fred spends an action point, if he goes to the top of the list

Fred
Joe
Mary <-- who I'm about to do something for

then Mary gets to act and THEN Fred THEN Joe... but is that what you're aiming for?

I think it's supposed to be implied that when someone's action is done, they're put on the end of the list, unless they pay an Action Point to bob back up again.

3. Nearly forgot: The damage system also gave me a headache. An example of how to adjudicate damage, using the sample picture, would rock.

[edited to get the name of the game right]

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

Boy, headache-y day for you, isn't it?

1. Just say "add." Be happy.

Example of character creation? OK ... umm, Salanzar, with Man 3, Beast 2, Demon 1. Primary Identity is Man, of course.

So

Size & Spirit are both 4 (Man)
Physique 6, Beauty 2 (male)
Speed 5, Social 3 (adult)

a) Sorcery and Bestial Expertises start at 0. All Tech Expertises start at 1.

b) I'm gonna make this guy big on missile stuff and social manipulation. So I'll put 3 Expertise in Missile and Negotiate, putting each at 4. All other Expertises in these areas (Awareness and Charisma) go up by 1: so now Know, Resist, Stalk, Sense, Lie, and Threaten are at 1, and Convince and Bureaucrat are now at 2.

c) I'll pop Athletics and Infomation up by 2 apiece; the former is now 2 and the latter is now 3.

d) I'll pop Stalk up by 1 for a total of 2, and Borg Power up by 1 for a total of 2.

I ain't sayin' I did it right in each of the character examples.

2. For the order of actions, yeah, when you're done, you're bumped down to the bottom of the list. The list is always topped by the person who, at the moment, is about to go next. Lose the whole concept of setting an order for "this round," 'cause there are no rounds.

3. Example of Damage? OK. Salanzar has Physique 6 and Size 4, right? Say this guy takes a Damage Effect of 7. He counts alllll the way over from left to right, 1-2-3-4-5-6, until he hits (what for him would be) the shaded area. Ahvia would've hit it back at the 2-3 boundary; Salanzar hits it at the 6-7 boundary.

OK, since he did hit this boundary and there's Effect left over, he loses an Action Point. Now he counts down column, and as it turns out, it's just one cell. So he doesn't pass down to the shaded area below (which he would have if he'd had five more Effect to count down, but he just had 1). He does lose 1 Physique for purposes of this table and also for target numbers.

If Ahvia had taken this kind of Effect, she'd be in big trouble: collapsed.

By the way, this is all just a fancy way of saying, subtract Physique from the Effect and if any is left, take a penalty, and compare what's left to your Body score. It ain't harder than that.

Note that you do count the "corner" box twice, once when you go across, and then counting it again when you start to count down.

Best,
Ron

[xiombarg]

By the way, this is all just a fancy way of saying, subtract Physique from the Effect and if any is left, take a penalty, and compare what's left to your Body score. It ain't harder than that.

Hmmm, I think this would have been clearer, and I'm not sure the "box" system adds any ease of use or Color, but that's just IMHO.

[Spooky Fanboy]

Question: Ron, are you planning on doing any more with Mongrel, or was this just an example of how to build this kind of game?

Cuz it was kinda cool.

[xiombarg]

Cuz it was kinda cool.

I'll second that, as that's why I was asking the questions I did. (And thanks for the answers, BTW... made things a lot clearer.)

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

I've already learned that at least one person plans to play Mongrel soon. I did write it to be playable, at least at the alpha-playtesting level, and it did arise from inspiration, not some bloodless technical desire to "do Sim" as an example. So I'd sure like to see it in play and get lots of feedback. I've indicated in the design notes the places that I, personally, would treat as "to be hashed out through play" at this point.

Also, although I have no present plans to develop the game into a product, I sure wouldn't mind seeing any artistic interpretations that anyone feels like dashing off.

Best,
Ron

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Ron and all,

I've put a Mongrel character sheet up on the web at http://www.indie-rpgs.com/files/mongrel_char_sheet.pdf. Enjoy.

[Ron Edwards]

Thanks Clinton!

'Cept ... you did that thing I knew someone would do ... you did the "threshold" thing instead of the chart thing.

Cries of "but that's easier" are falling on deaf ears. During play, the chart's easier. Has to be on the sheet.

Best,
Ron

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Ron,

You're right, of course. I had two small problems:

1. It didn't fit on the sheet well. Adding in up to seven columns and rows takes up a crackload of space, especially when most of them aren't used.
2. According to your explanations, the corner box is counted twice. Remembering that using the chart, which I was doing in my sample combats, was hard, as the box already had one damage X in it. I found that having one Threshold (equal to Size) and then another (equal to Size + Physique) worked out better.

I'm sure you've worked this out, though. How do you normally record damage in Mongrel?

[Clinton R. Nixon]

The sheet's now updated with a second page with the Wound Chart on it.

My recommendation for counting boxes is to count left to right using forward slashes, like '/'. When you count down, use backslashes like '\'. That way, in that corner box, you end up with a perfect 'X'.

[Rod Anderson]

Ron,

Reading over Mongrel, I just  noticed what strikes me as a peculiar feature of combat resolution. If I want my guy to, say, punch an NPC in the face, and both characters have a Physique of 3, then -- if he defends, he actually makes my target number easier, yes?

Assuming that my understanding is correct, I'm wondering if this is a.) a clever and/or serendipitous feature that adds tactical interest, or b.) something that needs fixing (my first instinct was to suppose the latter and say, "Maybe you should have to *exceed* your opponent's Attribute", but then I thought "Well, maybe there's a subtlety I'm missing"). I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this point.

Rod

[/i]

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Rod,

Clinton pointed this out too, before he and his group played. I decided to hold off on any rules-fixing until we see it in action; the idea is that maybe the less-skilled fighter actually makes things worse by trying to defend. It's pretty counter to most RPGers' additive mind-set, in which you have X "base defense" which Y "active defense" adds to.

But again, it's a matter of seeing all the possibilities in action and then deciding whether to change anything.

Best,
Ron