Is this a good idea to make combat a little easier?

[Valamir]

Ehh, looking it up I think Valamir is right, though the term 'simo attack' is missleading. It should be called 'Take it like a bitch then attack'...page 77, revised edition

Yup.  One thing that should not be overlooked is how important damage is to the equation.  For instance if we were talking a Str 7 character with a STR+3 Great Sword a single die attack does 11 damage, which is a level 4 wound on a guy with TO 5 and Leather Armor. .

"Take it like a bitch" indeed.

Also a good variant on the 1 die attack is using 2 dice, where 1 die makes the attack and the other buys an extra level of damage, per the standard cut/thrust rules

The key is if Damage (Str+X) is 1 point or more higher than the opponents TO + Armor it works.  If not, than it won't.  So the Stronger you are, the more likely a 1 die attack can be useful to you.  

Like any move in TROS there are occasions where a 1 die attack is a good idea, and occasions where it will get you killed.  The same can be said of feints, counters, and all dice attacks.  The key is to know when to use them and when not to.

[Brian Leybourne]

Ehh, looking it up I think Valamir is right, though the term 'simo attack' is missleading. It should be called 'Take it like a bitch then attack'...page 77, revised edition

Brian, don't you have the unrevised version of the game? Is this bit in it?

Sigh. Yes, I understand the rule. Yes, that's in the edition I have.

You're going under the assumption that he can only defend otherwise he's toast, but that's Simply. Not. Right.

A 1-die attack against 3 or 4 dice? You think him counterattacking is a poor move...?

You might miss, in which case you're dead or seriously screwed. You might have underestimated his toughness, in which case he's not hurt and you're seriously screwed. He might do a sim block/strike in which case you're seriously screwed. He might do an evasive attack with 1 die and +2 or +3 difficulty for you, making it more likely that you miss and you're seriously screwed. He might launch a defensive grapple, easy against a single die and he's halfway toward pinning or tossing you (semi-seriously screwed). He might do a counter, and you just gave him extra free dice next round (even if he only gets one or two extra, that's more than he would have had otherwise). He might block open and strike, you lose dice next round.

Etc.

Etc.

Etc.

Luck dice, smhuck dice. Not all characters have luck and even if you do it's a waste to use them to save yourself from the effects of what was a stupid attack in the first place.

You guys keep missing my point. Forget it. Move on to another topic. This one is dead.

Brian.

[Mokkurkalfe]

Your point is that a one-dice attack opens up for a plethora of  counter-maneuvers, right?

[Valamir]

You're going under the assumption that he can only defend otherwise he's toast, but that's Simply. Not. Right.

Not toast, but much worse off than defending.

A 1-die attack against 3 or 4 dice? You think him counterattacking is a poor move...?

You might miss, in which case you're dead or seriously screwed.

True, which is why having luck available to spend is a requirement.  At which time this becomes false.  You will not miss.  You will hit.  Period.

You might have underestimated his toughness, in which case he's not hurt and you're seriously screwed.

Possible, if the GM is actively trying to surprise the player and teach him a lesson.  Otherwise the rule book is pretty clear that the typical guardsman has a TO of 4.  So figure +/-1 to give individual NPCs some variation, and you have a pretty good idea what your opponent's toughness will be.  Which is why haveing sufficient Strength is a prerequisite of the move.  So again, not anymore dangerous or damaging than any other assumption you have to make about your foe when deciding what to do.  This is a risk of every maneuver...especially maneuvers like Stop Short where you have to judge whether your opponents Reflex and Perception are such to make maneuver effective.

He might do a sim block/strike in which case you're seriously screwed.

He could.  If he possesses a shield.  Fighting a guy with a shield is always a different proposition.  However there are mitigating factors.  If he has a shield you cut at his legs for the free +1cp, and now the 1 die attack becomes a 2-die attack.  So it is still possible for the 1 die attack to work against general SA-less opponents.  It is an additional factor to be considered in the decision.

If you hit first (which again is guarenteed with Luck, but potentially more expensive...a factor to be weighed in the decision) The shock will wipe out what remaining dice the opponent has in his strike pool...it will still fail

He might do an evasive attack with 1 die and +2 or +3 difficulty for you, making it more likely that you miss and you're seriously screwed.

Again not likely unless the GM was trying to pull a surprise move on the player.  The typical guardsman has Reflex 4 and CP 8.  The math on this means the guardsman has a proficiency of 4.  Evasive attack is not available until proficiency 6.  

Assuming you are fighting one of the more proficient guardsman (a range is given) Evasive attack is only available as a Longsword / Greatsword maneuver.  Assuming that is what the guardsman is using, there is a 1 die activation cost.  If the guardsman has only 3 dice (and all along I've said this maneuver is something you can use when the opponent leaves himself only 3 dice for the second exchange...maybe 4 if you're feeling more daring or if you can target the head), that leaves only 1 die to make the attack with and 1 die to increase the attackers TN...by 1.  

That makes it only 45% likely to hit without using luck instead of 50%...hardly a very worrisome choice.

He might launch a defensive grapple, easy against a single die and he's halfway toward pinning or tossing you (semi-seriously screwed).

Ahhh, now this one is a nice one.  Most players I suspect completely neglect the possibility of Defensive Grappling, its particularly useful when armed with a high DTN weapon.  The rules don't specify however what happens to a two handed weapon during a defensive grapple, or what penelty there may be for grappling while armed with a shield.

However, there is a 2 die activation cost for the grapple.  That leaves you with 1 die to make the attempt.  Your maximum success is a margin of success of 0.  Which means no effect other than a successful defense...and failure to take initiative.  You'd be better off simply parrying with 3 dice...which is what the 1 die attack is designed to provoke.

He might do a counter, and you just gave him extra free dice next round (even if he only gets one or two extra, that's more than he would have had otherwise).

Possible.  But again counters have a 2 die activation cost.  He would get 1 extra die next round, maybe.  Because since the attacker would know that the defender is countering, if the attack missed and the defenders defense succeeded, the attacker could simply elect NOT to spend luck for an auto attack, thereby depriving the defender of the free die.  In which case the defender used 3 dice in defense to no avail which again is the point.

However.  If the defender has only 3 dice (again one of the prerequisites of making the move right from the beginning) the defender can at best get a 0 margin of success if the attacker hit.  0 margin of success is a successful defense but not enough to take initiative.  The rule for Counter does not specify but the implication is that the Countering party must take initiative in order to use the bonus die on his next "attack" (if he is not the party making the next attack, I would rule that the bonus dice do not in fact carry over).

So again, not really even in best case, a better defensive option than simply parrying.

He might block open and strike, you lose dice next round.

Again, no.  There is a two die activation cost, which takes your Block Open defense down to 1 die.  The maximum margin of success is 0.  Plus, you're misremembering this move a little I think.  The attacker does not lose dice, the defender gains dice for his followup attack (basically, exactly like a Counter, but the bonus dice come from your own successes the previous exchange rather than the opponent's successes).  With a 0 margin of success, you don't gain initiative, you don't gain any bonus dice.

Etc.

Etc.

Etc.

I hear you Brian.  And I know full well the intimacy you have with the combat system from creating the sim.  But give me some credit for having thought this through as well.  

If nothing else it provides an object lesson in why an attacker in the first exchange should never leave themselves with just 3 dice for the second exchange.  Having only 3 dice left limits your options dramatically...(something that GMs who are roleplaying a 3-4 proficiency guy might have the guy do once in a while to more accurately simulate the fact that he is not a master and still prone to making errors in judgement).

Luck dice, smhuck dice. Not all characters have luck and even if you do it's a waste to use them to save yourself from the effects of what was a stupid attack in the first place.

I think perhaps you've spent so much time on the simulator where Luck dice are not available, that you've missed out on their utility.  They also are not that terribly difficult to get.  There are 2 guarenteed to be passed out to some player every session, and an unlimited amount (3 max per player) for moments of humor, planning, or dramatic roleplaying.

An interesting feature for the next version of the Combat Sim might be to add Luck to it, since it is so much more mechanically explicit than the other SAs.

You guys keep missing my point. Forget it. Move on to another topic. This one is dead.

Brian.

Agreed.  I continued here simply to demonstrate that your point was not missed, but rather already accounted for.

[Brian Leybourne]

I'm amused that you agreed the topic was dead, but still wanted to get the last word in. Still, that's probably what I'm doing right now :-)

I hear all your points, and raise you a "not all characters take luck as an SA, most I come across only take it when they can't think of 5 'real' SA's", plus a "even those who do take luck will save them for Count Rugen and not use them on Generic Guardsman 4", and most especially a "so your entire argument is based on knowing exactly how many dice an opponent has left, which may well be valid in your games but IMC I never let players know that kind of info".

I was also going on the assumption (stated earlier) that we were talking 3 or 4 dice, you are talking exactly 3 which I agree limits options.

I consider 3-4 still a reasonably good proficiency (you're not a master, but you've been trained, and you're certainly better than a boy with a stick unless Jake is playing the boy), especially since most maneuvers are available by a prof of 4. OTOH, 3-4 seems to be quite poor in your games. This is a matter of style and opinion, no right or wrong.

So we're both right, in our own games. Lets leave it at that while we're still friends :-)

Brian.

[Mike Holmes]

Anyway, one good point has come from all this, I think. Train your players, at least a little. So that they can make reasonable decisions, and see (or at least debate) the ramifications of their choices like Ralph and Brian can. While untrained as players, they are susceptible to a lot of needless suffering at the hands of nameless guards who, after all, can only be played so badly and be realistic. This is one surefire way to reduce any percieved deadliness in the system.

In fact if they get really good, you may have to keep up as GM to make sure it doesn't get too easy for them. I think either of these guys would trounce me with as many as a four die advantage.

Mike

[Brian Leybourne]

Yeah, but Jake could kick both our asses with one die tied behind his back :-)

Brian.

(edit: For some reason, I typed 'kiss both our asses'. Ahem, not quite what I meant *grin*).

[Mike Holmes]

LOL.

Damnit, stop that, you'll get me fired. Yep, in a scene that I'll never let him forget, Jake beat Ralph's (Valamir) monster warrior character playing a boy with a stick.

Of course, I shoudn't make fun, that was months ago just after we got our copies of the book, and I'd bet Ralph is gonna have his character kick my character's ass when they next meet to prove he's done his homework. Better get to the simulator to work out some.

Mike