Yggdrasil thoughts

[Christoffer Lernö]

Is this a subtle way of saying that perhaps you are not totally and fully in love with the name? :)

Actually I've been thinking of maybe changing it since people have been complaining (not that I think it's THAT bad).

But the situation as it stands is that I still don't have my old documents. So I can't make new pdf's nor do any major updates to the website and so on... Basically I'd have to keep explaining to people about a name-change I'm not sure would be permanent anyway (it would just be another label for the project) and I would still have it refered to as Yggdrasil in many places. So... I don't feel a name change would be very practical.

It's really that bad?

[Mike Holmes]

Consider a name change. But then only change it when you publish the next major revision. That way people will be able to do searches by the name of the version.

Mike

[Tar Markvar]

Are you using the same setting for your original idea, or are you shifting over to a "supers" type setting?

the reason I ask is because I was under the impression that this was a fantasy setting, but most of your examples are from superhero books. Fantasy in comics works a bit differently form superheroes in comics; compare ElfQuest to JLA and you'll see what I mean.

I'm not against it either way, really, but it seems to me that the setting and the system as you describe it seem to clash.

Jay

[Christoffer Lernö]

It's still fantasy, no change.

The reason for using superheroes in examples is that those examples are a lot more accessible to people than comic book fantasy. Especially since I draw a lot of inspiration from japanese, korean and chinese fantasy manga which just isn't available in the US or Europe. I could refer to them but it wouldn't help much because most people wouldn't have read them.

So it's just a matter of convenience. You're right that they're not the same, but they are similar enough IMHO.

Oh, and Elf Quest is a really bad example of what I'm thinking about when I'm saying comic book style fantasy. It's much better to think about a superhero comic with it's conventions. It's a lot closer to what I envision.

[Mike Holmes]

Like how BESM handles fantasy?

Mike

[Christoffer Lernö]

Mike, I don't have BESM so I can't tell. I've only read the BESM quickstart.

I also have to profess being a little unclear as to what you mean by "handling fantasy". If you wonder if it's anime-style fantasy, then I can say I'm definately inspired by it, but within anime and manga fantasy we have a lot of variation, so thinking in those terms might be misleading.

There was (is?) an Image comic called Battlechasers which had a feel very similar to what I see for my game if that helps any.

[Mike Holmes]

There was (is?) an Image comic called Battlechasers which had a feel very similar to what I see for my game if that helps any.

Well, I don't have Battlechasers, so I can't tell.

BESM is generically supposed to be like anime. That said, some would say that in it's "generic-ness" it misses the point of Anime, especially by being as Sim as it is.

But then that seems to be the perennial problem that you fall into as well. You want to stay away from metagame, like the mook rule, but you want some sort of "wiggle room" to allow the same effects. You have to make some hard choices here an move on. Don't your other rules allow for that wiggle already? Or are we going to get to the point where we're going to be debating wiggle room for Alignments, and everything else under the sun? Is the game about mooks, or defeating lots of mooks? I thought it was about monster bashing? Why are we even discussing this in the context of this game?

And since when is this game supposed to be "Comic Book Fantasy", anyhow? What happened to Standard Fantasy? Or Mythic Fantasy? It seems that just during the course of this thread, that because comic book examples came up that you're now leaning that way for some reason.

You're need to "dress up" your system as Traditional is really troubling. Your target audience gets weirder and weirder each day. If the game is no longer standard fantasy, but some sort of Comic Book Fantasy that's so esoteric that our stabs at trying to define it don't land, how is anyone else going to have a basic affinity for it? Is the game aimed at Japanese D&D gamers?

Either go traditional to target some market, or make a game that you think is fun to play, and hope that the rest of the world agrees. Did you miss all the social threads where this was bashed out?

Mike

[Christoffer Lernö]

But then that seems to be the perennial problem that you fall into as well. You want to stay away from metagame, like the mook rule, but you want some sort of "wiggle room" to allow the same effects.

With "wiggle room" you mean methods of steering sim rules in a narrativist direction? Or what? I'm not sure how you mean.

Don't your other rules allow for that wiggle already? Or are we going to get to the point where we're going to be debating wiggle room for Alignments, and everything else under the sun?

I do have a tendency to go out on tangents yes. But before I answer you I need to know what you mean by "wiggle room".

Is the game about mooks, or defeating lots of mooks? I thought it was about monster bashing?

It is monster (well, demon more like) hunting. But as I see it, these monsters will usually be intelligent ones, with servants. And the servants are where the mooks come in.

You're need to "dress up" your system as Traditional is really troubling. Your target audience gets weirder and weirder each day. If the game is no longer standard fantasy, but some sort of Comic Book Fantasy that's so esoteric that our stabs at trying to define it don't land, how is anyone else going to have a basic affinity for it? Is the game aimed at Japanese D&D gamers?

Maybe I'm being needlessly confusing. It's not all that big a difference between comic book fantasy and "standard fantasy" after all.

[Peregrine]

Hi Palefire, long time no hear...

I've got to agree that I'm not quite entirely sure how to envision play in Ygg after reding this thread. I can get into the comic book fantasy idea, but if this is just a convenient way to explain concepts, you should probably steer clear of it, just to avoid confusion. I see mythic and comic fantasy as quite seperate genres.

On the topic of names, assuming you are sticking with a norse theme, Yggdrasil means literally The Horse (Drasil) or the terrible One (Ygg). Ygg was a common name for Odinn. QED Odinn's horse.

If you wanted to translate into English in a less literal way, i.e. appeal to english speakers, I'd consider changing it to something like Tree of Worlds, or World Tree, or something similar, but also make sure that the Tree of Worlds figures largely in the game. I can imagine a setting in which the Tree of Worlds literally exists, and cities of elves and dwarves have made homes in the huge branches. travelling from world to world might require scaling branches, or going up ancient stairways carved into the tree, or taking rides of flying long-boats. Could be very cool. Does that fit with your demon hunting idea. Or should you just remane the game Demon Hunter?

I've just been looking up some of Snorri's descriptions of Yggdrasil, and am frankly a little bemused. I don't think Snorri had a good grip on what the tree was exactly in a cosmic sense to the norse. I wish someone had written those damned sagas down a good two hundred yars earlier. I am convinced Snorri's stuff is corrupted beyond recognition. That's just me grumbling.

This is kind of good though, becuase if the game is going to revolve around the tree (as the name still suggests), then it gives you a lot of freedom with what exactly it is...

Anyway, I like teh idea that character concept and colour is not impeded by rules. Though mostly i think the easiest way to do this is go for rules light, and then encourage some sort of meta-reward for acting colourful.

Chris

EDIT: To correct a few of the more obvious typos.

[Christoffer Lernö]

Hi Peregrine, long time no see.

I've got to agree that I'm not quite entirely sure how to envision play in Ygg after reding this thread. I can get into the comic book fantasy idea, but if this is just a convenient way to explain concepts, you should probably steer clear of it, just to avoid confusion. I see mythic and comic fantasy as quite seperate genres.

I personally don't see the contradiction, but that's just me. But I realize it came to confuse matters even more.

On the topic of names, assuming you are sticking with a norse theme, Yggdrasil means literally The Horse (Drasil) or the terrible One (Ygg). Ygg was a common name for Odinn. QED Odinn's horse.

Yeah, after he sacrificed himself to himself by hanging himself in the tree for 9 (?) days to learn the secrets of the runes. Etc etc. (Incidentally this convoluted explanation comes from Odin and his pantheon being forced into earlier and older beliefs. And when Snorri wrote his stuff most people were already christians)

But it's not a game of "norse mythology" although it definately inspiring me. Just making that clear.

might require scaling branches, or going up ancient stairways carved into the tree, or taking rides of flying long-boats. Could be very cool. Does that fit with your demon hunting idea. Or should you just remane the game Demon Hunter?

The whole demon (actually Ogre) hunting thing will be expanded later, when (if ever *sigh*) I get the system the way I want it. I have a lot of ideas to draw from. Norse mythology obviously, but not exclusively. There are definately not any vikings in the game.

Anyway, I like teh idea that character concept and colour is not impeded by rules. Though mostly i think the easiest way to do this is go for rules light, and then encourage some sort of meta-reward for acting colourful.

Yes exactly. How to do it well though without overdosing on meta-mechanics, that's the problem for me. But I should quit whining and keep writing on it. :)

[Peregrine]

Yeah, got to appreciate that Snorri wrote them sagas down at all, but still would've been nice to know what non-christianised icelanders thought of the whole gods thing.

As to the game, surely you could introduce some sort of rewards system based on character concept. Something real simple, like a meta-game reward (be it fate poins, or experience or willpower or whatever), that players get in reward for acting in accordance with the colour of their character.

You could approach this in a more structured way, as Pendragon did, and provide lists of Passions that characters can pursue, or in a far more flexible way and suggest characters have core elements that are rewarded if indluged in. I dunno.

Let's say I create character who I want to...

Be obsessed with finding his lost love.
Is a buckaneer, joking, pirate sort.
Only ever fights with a favourite sword.

You could then allow for the Gm to make subjective or semi-subjective decisions as to when I should be rewarded for pursuing these concepts.

Maybe that is a bit complex.

Another way to do this would simply be to work away from bonuses from environment, tactics yadda yadda, and say simply that skills are everything. Thus if I have a 'fight with frying pan' skill of 20 I'm always going to beat an ogre who owns a big two handed sword and plate armour, but only has a skill of 5. The peripheral stuff a character owns, then becomes image-only. This would also have to mean that any character can own whatever belongings the player wants at the begining of the game.

You want a war horse? Fine. But a character with 'Run really fast' skill of 15 is still going to outpace you.'

You want plate armour. No problem. But a character with 'take the damage like a man' skill of 20 is stil better off. In fact the plate armour does you no real good at all.

It doesn't make a lot of 'real world' sense, but would certainly make the system feel more like a comic book, or even mythic (I'm sort of seeing how these could cross over. The way characters act, and what is important to them is often similar, just the mood feels different)...

In a mythic sense the only thing you'd be missing out on are the McGuffins that mythic characters always have. Odinn's spear, Maui's fish hook, Perseus's mirrored shield and so on. You could treat McGuffins as skills though, I suppose, kind of like Hero Wars. Then having a 'Sword of Dragon Slaying 18' would be better than 'Fight with Sword 15', but maybe not much good against anything other than dragons in which case you fall back on the Fight with Sword skill. Does that make sense?

And as to a name, if the game is not overtly norse, as 'Yggdrasil' suggests, then drop the name like a hot potato. It's only going to confuse players. Go for something simple but evocative. Just my two cents.

Chris

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Christoffer,

The game isn't Norse. "Yggdrasil" is a Norse-evocative name. In fact, it's more than that, it is overtly and specifically a central feature in Norse mythology. If you call the game Yggdrasil, and if the game is not specifically and only centered on Norse mythology, you are literally mislabelling the game.

It's pretty straightforward. One of my games is called Trollbabe, because characters must be two-meters-tall women with horns. It's not called "Spirit" or "Tengu" or "Corporate Intrigue" or "Time Travel." Naming your game "Yggdrasil" is just as off-base for your game as "Time Travel" is for Trollbabe.

I think you're simply in the habit of calling the game Yggdrasil in your mind, perhaps with some emotional investment based on your own creative process or sense of ownership of the game. Really - changing the name to something more meaningful is very important. I rarely care about games' names and don't enter into the debates about them very much. In this case I'm making an exception: calling your game "Yggdrasil" is creatively, informatively, and conceptually inappropriate.

Best,
Ron

[Christoffer Lernö]

Like I said, I'll wait with re-labelling it until I have something new to publish otherwise I'm afraid things will just get confusing. It's always been just a convenient label instead of calling it "the game I'm working on" :) "Ygg" was so much shorter.

Thanks for your suggestions Peregrine, I'll keep those in mind.

[Peregrine]

No problem. Let me know when you get a new verison of the game posted. I'll be keen to have a look through and see how it has progressed.

Chris