The Whip in Combat?

[kanseg]

I've recently started some basic training in flexible weapons and had a question on how the whip might fit into TROS.  I know some of the Filipino systems developed the Whip as means of attacking at longer ranges, although they also used shorter whips.  The combat whips could apparently cut flesh to the bone (not sure what material they were made of or whether they had blades imbedded in the whip) and were also used to entangle an opponent.   The normal usage was to also have a knife in the free hand in case the enemy got in close where you couldn't use the whip (apart from using the handle as a club) or if you entangled them you could then pull them onto the blade.  The knife could also be used to cut the whip free if it was entangled or caught by the enemy leaving you with a club and a knife.

I carried out a search of the forum and came up with a post by Mr Norwood quted below:

I've spent some time with a bull whip, but one thing that strikes me about both the bullwhip and the cat o' nice tails is that neither is going to have much damage at all, and will probably even cap out at a level 2 or 3...but the shock (and pain?) values are likely to be considerable. I wouldn't consider either one a viable weapon in any kind of life-or-death situation...rather something good for keeping an opponent at bay when you've got room to move around in (in the case of a whip), or for making someone talk (as with the cat o nine).

My initial proposition, then, is:
(Bull)whip
Range: long/very long (depending on build)
ATN: 7 or 8?
DTN: 10 or 12?
Dam: ST -3b (or cutting?)
Notes: Doubles (Triples?) Shock modifiers before WP is subtracted. Pain is normal. No bonuses against armor of any kind.

Cat o' Nine Tails
R: Short or Medium
ATN: 6
DTN: 7 or 8
Dam: ST-3c
Notes: Doubles (Triples?) Shock modifiers before WP is subtracted. Doubles Pain modifiers before WP is subtracted. BL +1. No bonuses against armor of any kind.

Has there been any further development on this idea?

Regards

kanseg

[Darth Tang]

There's a documentary on whips in combat called Indiana Jones & the Temple of Doom.

Against a opponent wearing armor or heavy clothing, a whip would be useless. And even if you struck, by the time you recovered, your foe would have had a couple free swings.

In the old West, bullwhip fights between (drunk) muleskinners were not all that uncommon, but hardly combat, and seldom resulted in real injury. William Matherson writes about it.

If Tolkin had given the Balrog something else,this question would quit popping up.

[kanseg]

Thanks for the response, Darth Tang

If Tolkin had given the Balrog something else,this question would quit popping up.

You're probally right.  To be honest my own training in flexible weapons is more to develop flexibility and strength (dynamic) in the wrist and forearm so that my stick and sword work improves.  

Against a opponent wearing armor or heavy clothing, a whip would be useless. And even if you struck, by the time you recovered, your foe would have had a couple free swings.

Another point is that people tend to be more lightly clothed in the tropical areas such as the Philippines and so possibly the whip developed as a combat weapon there because it could be practically used to some effect.  I guess there are areas of Weyrth where the clothing might be light enough due the climate so that culturally the whip developed as a practical choice as a weapon.  

I agree that a whip does take time to recover for another strike, hence my comments on the practicality of having a second weapon (preferably a blade) in the free hand.  However having seen my teacher in action I note that there is far less recovery time required on the short whip (4 to 6 feet) as opposed to the long whips (9 feet plus)

Regards

kanseg

[Mike Holmes]

Lesse, Balrog, ST 23.

I'd fear the whip. Sure he could use a more effective weapon. But he doesn't really have to worry about damage, does he. So the whip's advantage for him is it's range. Which for the Balrog is quite long, much to Gandalf's chagrin.

So it's not effective for humans against humans. But for a giant creature against non-giants?

Shudder.

Mike

[Darth Tang]

Now, after seeing the LoTR, with the chain-wielding Troll, I've devised rules for very lage humaniods to employ a chain in a like manner. However, the impact of such a weapon would be much, much greater. Although still slow.

Isn't the Phill art using flexible rods, like canes, rather than braided whips? Or am I thinking of something else.

[Eamon Voss]

Isn't the Phill art using flexible rods, like canes, rather than braided whips? Or am I thinking of something else.

Filipino arts vary from place to place and tribe to tribe.  But most of them include more than just rattan and knives.  Think swords, machetes, whips, ropes, chains and more.  This is because filipino arts tend to focus more on fighting principles than specific techniques.  Back when my skills in Kali were still good, I could pick up anything and use it to bind and hurt people.  That include katana, nunchaku and staves, all of which I impressed 'experts' on the first time I picked up those weapons.  That was fun, especially using a simple clipboard to disarm people who thought they knew their stuff.  Heh heh heh.

Anyway, think of it like TROS.  You have skill defaults right?  The same applies to Filipino styles, which often give you bonuses on your defaults.

Then again, the good swordsmen of the time that TROS focuses on where often masters in more than just the sword.  Polearms, knife-fighting, wrestling, jousting and more.  So they should get default bonuses perhaps?  Haw haw haw.

[kanseg]

Hi Darth Tang

Isn't the Phill art using flexible rods, like canes, rather than braided whips? Or am I thinking of something else

I've seen different kind of whips but the item I can think of most like a flexible rod is the South African Sjambok.  Never used one myself but I've heard from people who have that it causes an extreme level of pain.  Guess that was why is was apparently so popular with the South African Police!  I'm fairly certain that some of the Philippine arts use something similar.  

Now, after seeing the LoTR, with the chain-wielding Troll, I've devised rules for very lage humaniods to employ a chain in a like manner. However, the impact of such a weapon would be much, much greater. Although still slow.

I'm not sure if it would be so slow, Darth Tang.  IMO it might depend on the level of skill of the user.  My own recent limited experience moving into flexible weapon training was that the major hinderance as a beginner is that your recovery time after a strike is too long and unless you got a good strike in first you might leave yourself open to a counter.  I have been told that the key to improving skill is to reduce the recovery time so from watching an expert use the chain I can see that he is launching a barrage of strikes by using flow.  That is to say the chain never stops moving so if he misses on a strike he can instantly continue the movement into another strike and so minimise the recovery time.  Of course if he were to hit an obstacle like armour or a weapon that would disrupt his flow and so result in delay as he tries to recover the weapon to a chambered position (if he is sensible by moving away).  Again with a larger creature like a Cave Troll or a Balrog any kind of hit on you is going to hurt so it might not matter where it hits as long as it hits.

Thanks for the post, Darth Tang - you're really making me think about things.  I'm seeing things from a new perspective.

Eamon Voss - I know exactly what you mean.  The same principles and concepts can be applied to almost anything in ways that sometimes can be really surprising, heh heh.  Sort of like the TROS system where knowledge in one weapon type gives a default skill in others.  Now where did I put that toothpick...

Regards

kanseg

[Lance D. Allen]

This reminds me of something I've heard of, but can neither confirm or deny. It's a weapon, a long, fairly thin chain with weights at either end, and maybe a blade on one end. It's used by looping it around the user's body, then uncoiled into strikes that have a lot of force in a fairly brief period.

It was a weapon used by a fantasy martial arts group in my FFRP setting, but the group was created by someone with a strong background in real-world martial arts, and I believe he'd told me that all of the weapons were either real-life weapons, or based on them.. Can anyone elaborate further on this weapon?

[Sneaky Git]

This reminds me of something I've heard of, but can neither confirm or deny. It's a weapon, a long, fairly thin chain with weights at either end, and maybe a blade on one end. It's used by looping it around the user's body, then uncoiled into strikes that have a lot of force in a fairly brief period.

It was a weapon used by a fantasy martial arts group in my FFRP setting, but the group was created by someone with a strong background in real-world martial arts, and I believe he'd told me that all of the weapons were either real-life weapons, or based on them.. Can anyone elaborate further on this weapon?

Hmm.  Something like a manriki-gusari?  A weighted Japanese (I think)chain-type weapon-thing?

Chris

[Valamir]

If I recall correctly, Jackie Chan used something similar (a rope tied to a horseshoe) to great effect and amazing visuals in Shanghai Noon.

The principle effectiveness of such a weapon comes from deception.  The human brain is wonderfully adept at judging trajectories...its what allows us to aim a bow or catch a baseball.  The brain makes certain assumptions about the flight path of an object in motion.

These weapons essentially put an object in motion that the brain can easily recognize and judge its path of motion.  The skilled wielder then uses various jerks, etc on the chain to send the object careening in an unexpected direction that the brain then has a great deal of difficulty reacting to.

[Salamander]

This reminds me of something I've heard of, but can neither confirm or deny. It's a weapon, a long, fairly thin chain with weights at either end, and maybe a blade on one end. It's used by looping it around the user's body, then uncoiled into strikes that have a lot of force in a fairly brief period.

It was a weapon used by a fantasy martial arts group in my FFRP setting, but the group was created by someone with a strong background in real-world martial arts, and I believe he'd told me that all of the weapons were either real-life weapons, or based on them.. Can anyone elaborate further on this weapon?

Yep, manriki-gusari, also known as a Gusari Chain, usually it is two small weighted ends with a fine "slick" or flexible chain between the two. The one I had used octagonal rods of about 6cm in length and 3cm in diameter with a 92cm chain.. I actually learned how to use it while serving The Queen, nasty and quite flexible, disarms, binds, grapples, throws, strikes and garotting were all easily achieved with this weapon. But alas, they took it back when I left and I have not practiced with it for many years.