SA: Luck..."Fate Points"?

[arxhon]

You may be familiar with the concept of Fate Points from WFRP. If not, they're pretty simlpe. A Fate point allows you to ignore a critical damage roll.

Can Luck be used in the same manner by burning a point of Luck?

On one hand i'd say "No", because the player already had a chance to affect the roll with his defense declaration, and may further affect it with using his bonus dice afforded by Luck.

On the other hand, one could argue "yes" because it allows for extended character lifespan while depriving the character of advancement.

Edit: THe problem with this approach is that combat becomes a lot less deadly, with players thinking "Meh...I'm not going to bother to defend. If he hits me, i'll just Luck it away."

What do you all think?

[Mokkurkalfe]

I allow burning luck in combat. If they do, then they may re-roll that exchange/terrain roll/whatever.
And even if it makes combat less deadly, it still burns SA's. And my players, at least, sees a sessions as a "failed" one if they gained three SA points but had to burn four Luck points.

[Valamir]

I believe the rules say that you use a point of luck to roll another die.  You BURN a point of luck permanently (even if already spent) for a guarenteed single success.

So if a guarenteed single success on a defense roll is enough to drop a wound from "you're dead" to "you're not dead yet"...then great.

Were you thinking something more than that?

[Ashren Va'Hale]

actually, the book says you can burn luck for an instant success in a matter outside the characetrs hands like a hay load under the tower the PC leapt out of. I allow the PC's to burn luck in combat in those wonderful OH SHI! moments  if the PC's can give a good explanation as to how luck saved their rears in that combat... things like "he slips and falls down" doesnt cut it for me, "He swings and would have normally sliced me in half  but as I was jumping out of the way I slipped and fell in the pool of blood from the guy I decapitated and this caused his blow to only cut me" (level 0 wound and minus a few combat dice for the stumble, better than being dead).  This allows for more drama in the game and a greater cinematic feel. It also allows the characters some degree of risk taking so they aren't entirely afraid to put their prcious characters on the line and constantly avoid direct confrontation. Of course I let badguys with SA's do the same with their luck to even things out and further increase the drama.

[Bankuei]

I agree with Ashren.  Luck is one of those SAs that just doesn't really balance unless you give it some leeway.  Consider that with a standard SA I get somewhere between 3 to 5 extra dice per action, compared to "an extra 1-5 dice a game"...Plus its not like Luck is easy to boost up either.  Permanently burning a Luck point is a bitch to recover, so I always fall in favor of, "Its worth doing permanently, alright, you live".

Chris

[arxhon]

actually, the book says you can burn luck for an instant success in a matter outside the characetrs hands like a hay load under the tower the PC leapt out of.

The thing here is that being hit isn't entirely out of the character's hands, as they already have some control over it, first with the allocation of CP to defensive maneuvers, and second with the use of bonus dice that can be added to the defensive maneuver roll.

Does instant success mean "Equivalent to a roll of one success", or "automatically succeed at the action regardless of the number of successes that may have been required, even if that was 5 or more"?

I was thinking about your comments Bankuei, and realized that since i have a small group (2 players until the beginning of the next session, where i will have 3), that my players were guaranteed Luck every session.  

This allows for more drama in the game and a greater cinematic feel. It also allows the characters some degree of risk taking so they aren't entirely afraid to put their prcious characters on the line and constantly avoid direct confrontation.

This is a good thing. :-) Although i've noticed that as long as players are using their SA's in combat, there is no real need to worry.  My players are usually rolling 16 to 20 dice in situations where SA's are being used.

I allow the PC's to burn luck in combat in those wonderful OH SHI! moments

I've been sort of using Luck in this manner, but i've been narrating the results of using Luck for them. Generally, if a character takes a hit that he doesn't want, then he can use Luck to avoid the result of the hit.

What i'm seeing happen is that my players are going "Well, i'm just going to throw red, then throw a bunch of dice into my attack. I don't care if my opponent is also throwing red. If he hits me and i don't like it, i can just use my Luck to ignore the result. I'm guaranteed more Luck at the end of the session anyway.", which is kind of a munchkin use for the SA. Entirely my own fault for interpreting the SA in this fashion, i will admit.

I may see some lessening of this attitude once the third player gets underway and now that the players are short on Luck. I've only been issuing Luck for highest roll and "Better Luck next time", since they haven't been able to come up with hilarious plans.

Perhaps getting the players to narrate a "cool something" will help. I don't know. Sadly, both my current players are trying to play the game D&D style, complete with min-maxing of characters, and this may be part of the issue as well. One barely contributes unless combat is involved, but that's another thread.

[Valamir]

Well, perhaps this is just two much of the rules lawyer in me, but the text doesn't say "A point may be spent permanently to afford instant success in any manner..."

It says "A point may be spent permanently to afford AN instant success in any manner..." (emphasis mine)

I interpreted that as specifically referring to the equivelent to a bonus die that automatically beats the target number.   As opposed to simple spending of luck which is a bonus die that may or may not beat the target number.

[Bankuei]

Granted, good points everyone, although I think there are quite a few things that are "out of player hands" that can certainly be accomplished with the directorial power that Luck can grant.  

In combat, I wouldn't have the simple, "I dodge" result, it'd be more like, "His sword catches in my armor in a weird way and gets stuck!", "His weapon slides out of his sweaty palms, flying in a random direction! Someone duck!"etc.  In other words, luck wouldn't just be "yaay, I got success!" but rather include its own set of possible complications and problems.

Aside from that Arxhon, while I'm sure your group is getting a fair amount of Luck by odds alone, its not like any other sort of SA that you can "power up" by choice, you're pretty much stuck with hoping for the best.  Plus, like I said, even with that option, its still the slowest growing SA amongst them all.

Chris

[arxhon]

Hey Valamir,

I understand where you are coming from now. I agree, actually.

Hmmm....Bankuei, i think i'll look at getting the players to be more descriptive in their use of luck in combat. No cool description set of possible complications and problems, no use of Luck.

[Ashren Va'Hale]

I also dont let them use luck in the what the hell I have a luck die fashion without some consequences, when you count on luck saving you it might not do so in the way you imagine- example, if the PC is planning to use the luck die to save himself in a situation he should never have gotten in like the example given, then I let him do so but it ends up worse for him than the NPC. Example.... the NPC barely missed killing the PC since the PC's armor caught he sword in a wierd way, the poblem is the armor is no longer fit correctly and is getting in the way, - 2 CP for the rest of the fight and now you need to repair the armor. This discourages the munchkin thought process really fast.

Oh, the best way to wipe out minmaxer attitudes is to place the PC's in a tight spot that the Min part really hurts them in- Example, the idiot socialless fighter with no willpower must explain his killing actions to the local duke, if he fails to explain himself, well off to the gallows.

MAke them pay for the mins in the minmaxing. Its easy to do with TROS and since the game is lethal, well, the third or fourth character might be more balanced.

[Bankuei]

Example.... the NPC barely missed killing the PC since the PC's armor caught he sword in a wierd way, the poblem is the armor is no longer fit correctly and is getting in the way, - 2 CP for the rest of the fight and now you need to repair the armor. This discourages the munchkin thought process really fast.

Exactly how I'd do it.  You survive, but that doesn't mean its all fun and games  :)  I really like Luck to encompass those "wacky" stories that you hear about in real life or in war vet stories that somewhat evolve into their own form of urban legends.  The unique, once in a lifetime, damn that was funny but fucked up all at the same time kind of stuff.

Chris