The formula?

[Jack Spencer Jr]

I had been thinking about Sorcerer and Game Design in general and think I've notice a "formula" of sorts.

First, you come up with a concept.  I'm using the word concept to avoid the jargon and to avoid screwing up the accepted definitions.  This is what the game is about , more or less.  Sorcerer is about demon-summoning sorcerers in the modern day.

Another part of the formula is an attribute of the character.  Usually it is some sort of number with an often-changing value.  In Sorcerer this is Humanity.  The purpose of this attribute is to bring the game's concept (premise, situation and all) into sharp focus.  The sorcerers are doing terrible things and are losing their Humanity.

It works a little like Hit Points but unlike hit points, the loss of even a single point effects play.  Hit points rarely effect anything until they're gone.  (Oh sure.  There may be a modifier or something, but Humanity effects roleplaying.  Hit point pelalties usually effects combat.)

The third item is a major element of the game's concept is user defined.  Usually major items like this are predefined for the player in Monster Manuals, Spell lists, Skill lists, stuff like that.  By making it user defined, it increases the player's attachment to the campaign since it is more "theirs" in this regard.

The big defined element is, of course, the demons themselves.  There are "sample" demons presented but they are far less interesting or inspiring that the rules for creating your own demons.

In summary, having a major element of the game being left up to the player (with plenty of direction for how to make it GOOD) and having a character stat with a variable value that all reinforces the game's concept.

There is no doubt more to it, but these elements can keep a game on track for what it's meant to do.  Or so it seems.

[contracycle]

I like this concept in general terms.  I'm a big fan of "genre" supporting mechanics, the like of which you identify in Sorcerors Humanity (and presumably Vampires incarnation of the same).  In fact I really like the fact that you bring this to the fore, as I feel that games that lack such specific elements give too bland a feeling to the formal resolution mechanics.  

I am very intrigued by your user-defined property idea, but I need something more to really see what you are suggesting.  can you think of a concrete example?

[Jack Spencer Jr]

A concrete example?  I take it the demons in Sorcerer didn't do it for you.

I guess it's like this.  In most RPGs the items found theirin are on a big list and you just choose from the list what you want like a Chinese menu.  Defining it yourself can can free up some of the restiction that are always present in a predefined list.

Consider, for example, a super hero game.  I've played Villians and Vigilantes quite a bit and it is pretty fun.  But all of the super powers are predefined (it actually works for V&V)

Now imagine a game where the superpowers are not predefined but you must come up with the powers as you create the character.  In such a game, as I see it, part of the point of playing will be in defining the PC's powers and what they can and can't do with them.

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

One of the most powerful influences of early Champions on role-playing was its explicit insistence that its "powers list" was strictly metagame. The notion was that you conceived the powers and most-everything about the hero FIRST, and then built/assembled them in game terms from their generic/component list.

Thus the Vision's "density" power would be, in game terms, a mix of Desolidification, Increased Density, Flight, and Energy Attack modified by No Normal Defense and No Range; with the first two powers in what was called a Multipower Pool ...

In game terms, he was this cunning mix of powers rules; in concept or story terms, he simply had ONE power, over density. (Leaving out that solar gem thing for the moment, OK?)

Anyway, Champs was the game that brought this thinking to role-playing. It showed up as well in the fantasy game from the same company, Fantasy Hero, in the magic system, which had awful Currency problems, but the IDEA was solid.

However, the philosophy of game design at the time basically buried the gold nugget of player-creativity at the heart of Champions power-design, and Champs 4th edition and the later Millenium edition buried it for good.

I always wanted the "demon game" idea I was kicking around to give that idea renewed life.

Best,
Ron

[Jack Spencer Jr]

Yeah.  It seems that some people just didn't care for that aspect of Champions especially when it became the Hero system and they applied it to spellcasting.  Some people just could not handle not having a set spell list, I guess.

That said, the demons in Sorcerer are a lot freer in design than powers in Champions.  Super powers are kind of like a conceptual tinker toy, much like the example of The Vision.  He only has one power but it takes, what was it, six or seven items to define that one power.  To be fair it's just a way to translate it into game terms but it can be a lot of work when you just want to make Spider-Man.

Besides, IIRC the powers section was rife with character currency problems, wasn't it?

I suppose in the end, it was too much like work in Champions while something of a pleasure in Sorcerer.

[contracycle]

Ah, I guess the paragraph-and-keyword system of HeroWars seems to coincide with what you mean, although that system does not have a fixed rating counter.

[Ron Edwards]

Gareth,

Regarding Hero Wars, could you clarify? I think I agree with you regarding the paragraph/keyword concept, in that keywords are not themselves abilities, but rather "organizers" of abilities.

However, what do you mean by a "fixed rating counter"? I'm sure you're saying something interesting, but break it down into several sentences so I can get it.

Thanks,
Ron

[contracycle]

Well, all I meant was like Humanity, in Vampire specifically.  That one counts down in a mechanical sense.

I once tried to come up with a taxonomy of character sheet devices: sliders, which have a fixed value range and move up and down; radio buttons, of which only one may be selected (like Class or Alignment), check boxes (usually merits and flaws).  Never found a proper use for the concept, though.

[Ron Edwards]

Gareth,

Oh, I see. Right - Hero Wars doesn't have one of those. The Hero Points come closest, as a resource for metagame mechanics, but there's nothing that "tracks" an aspect of the character that increases or decreases.

But wait a minute. Those Hero Points are interesting, though. In my extensive play of Hero Wars, they are much more important as a player-device (the metagame role) than as an improvement-device. It reminds me a lot of Karma Points in The Whispering Vault; the GM gets used to passing out tons more Karma points than the players will use for

Taking this to a design consideration (this is the Design Forum, after all), we could divide Jack's notion of the "changing variable" into two:
- in-game descriptors like Blood Pool in Vampire, Humanity in Cyberpunk, and Sanity in Call of Cthulhu.
- metagame "managers" like Hero Points in Hero Wars, Karma Points in The Whispering Vault, and Story Points in Story Engine.

Both of these are changing variables that can go up or down, and both of them "reflect" the character's history or current state or what-have-you. But the one is primarily a character-descriptor ("My guy is now neurotic") and the other is primarily a metagame-rights or story-positioner ("Hmm, more icky behavior and my guy is up for a serious backlash," "No points left, so I can't diddle my dice rolls for a while").

I would argue that Humanity in Sorcerer is actually more like the second than the first. Someone might say, "Hey, but the second category is all about experience points too," and I would smile and point out that Humanity IS the Sorcerer improvement mechanic as well.

Best,
Ron