Glorantha: I'm Confused...

[simon_hibbs]

Hi guys,

This still brings me to question of *why* Seshnela is described the way it was.  I don't mean in terms of in-history justification.  I mean in terms of design, what did Greg & Crew see Glorantha getting out of it?

[/i]

Greg says that the first story he ever told set in glorantha was about Prince Snodal, who (perhaps later) was ultimately responsible for the
conspiracy that did in the God of the Silver Feet, bringing The Ban
down on Fronela. This was back in the 60's, so creatively speaking,
the west of glorantha pre-dates the bits we're more familiar with.


Simon Hibbs

[Christopher Kubasik]

Hi all,

Because people keep picking up on this one little section of sentences out of all the sentences I've written on this thread so far, let me offer something:

The tone, if you read them out loud, should be one not of indignation, but really excited curiosity.  

In other words, it's not, "For god's sake, why did this happen?" but... well, what I wrote.  I really wanted to know the design parameters so I could use them to my best advantage.  Posts following the quoted statements suggest I've found some answers, which satisfy me at least, so we can perhaps focus on other matters.  Or even let the thread drop.

Thanks,
Christopher

[Nick Brooke]

You get to play a "Bronze Age" spin on Clavell's Shogun, where the knights "know" they're better than the barbarians, but because of social ties of one kind or another start going "native" -- with respect or despair -- or have to actively resist their new "home."  Hmmm.  Do they stay true the invisible god, or give into the Storm Gods -- also of power. Do they enjoy their new found raging freedom, or feel guilty about it.  (Hey! I think I'm getting the hang of this Glorantha thing!)

Here's an old Glorantha Digest post from me about a Rokari Knight who had encountered (and been favourably impressed by) Humakt... and what his Wizard would say about this. Hope you enjoy it: it seemed relevant!

Cheers, Nick

[joshua neff]

Christopher said:

Neat, huh?

Extremely. The cyclical "campaign" run is something I've been thinking about for a while, & Glorantha seems a great setting to do that with. (I could also see doing a series of Sorcerer & Sword runs, using the same setting & premises, but with different characters.)

This thread & my own Glorantha readings, plus playing in Mike's Shadow-World-using-Hero-Wars-rules game, has gotten me very excited about HeroQuest coming out.

Now, here's a question: are there any good Low Middle Ages movies out there that would be good inspirado for a Seshnela/Ralios/Fronela narrative? The only things I can think of are Monty Python & the Holy Grail & the first series of Blackadder--in terms of grungy Medieval setting, not in terms of mood or theme.

[Nick Brooke]

Now, here's a question: are there any good Low Middle Ages movies out there that would be good inspirado for a Seshnela/Ralios/Fronela narrative? The only things I can think of are Monty Python & the Holy Grail & the first series of Blackadder--in terms of grungy Medieval setting, not in terms of mood or theme.

First ones that come to mind for me are:

The opening sequence of

Excalibur (Uther at Tintagel through to Uriens knighting Arthur);
Terry Gilliam's Jabberwocky (mediaeval grunge to the nth degree, plus a real tournament);
A Knight's Tale (may not be "Low Middle Ages", but it's certainly a look at their underbelly).[/list:u]Cheers, Nick

[Alai]

(Of course, I also really, really want to run a mystical Kralorela wuxia game....)

I think that according to recent Gregly pronouncements, by the Canon you'll get to pick at best two out of the above three. ;-)  See the Glorantha Digest for the messy details...

But personally I think it's a great idea, even if one might have to call it something other than "mystical", and even if HW doesn't have much in the way support for wire-flick action.  (Hoping to be contradicted by construction on at least this latter point, though.)

Cheers,
Alex.

[joshua neff]

I can't believe I forgot about Jabberwocky. Thanks, Nick.

[simon_hibbs]

Now, here's a question: are there any good Low Middle Ages movies out there that would be good inspirado for a Seshnela/Ralios/Fronela narrative? The only things I can think of are Monty Python & the Holy Grail & the first series of Blackadder--in terms of grungy Medieval setting, not in terms of mood or theme.

How about 'Flesh and Blood', directed by Paul Verhoeven and starring Rutger Hauer.

Or perhaps 'The name of The Rose', directed by Directed by Jean-Jacques Annaud and starring Sean Connery and Christian Slater.


Simon Hibbs

[Bracken]

How about 'Flesh and Blood', directed by Paul Verhoeven and starring Rutger Hauer.

Or perhaps 'The name of The Rose', directed by Directed by Jean-Jacques Annaud and starring Sean Connery and Christian Slater.


Simon Hibbs

Both are excellent Choices. BTW, the origional title of "Name of the Rose" was "Flesh and Blood". You sometimes find it under either title. They also re-released the soundtrack a while ago under the old name.

Bracken

[Mike Holmes]

Hold on, I'm going to flip-flop a couple of times.

Flesh and Blood is distinctly Rennaisance. Including the use of a Petard in an early scene, and costumes to support it.

I keep getting the feeling that this "low medieval" can't resolve itself to any particular model and that it's actually a mishmash of 19th century romantic modeling that ends up being the cause of modern stuff like Excalibur. Which does seem to be totally at odds with the rest of the world in some ways.

OTOH, some part of me wants to buy it. First, I think that the term "Bronze Age" that's bandied about is abused here greatly. For one, I believe that Iron working is common knowledge across Glorantha. Societally we seem to have cultures as advanced as the Romans. If anything, medieval society was a step backwards in many ways from the heights of Roman civilization.

The point being, I don't really see any technological abnormalities here, nor societal advancements that seem out of place.

What seems odd is that these societies are juxtaposed against each other, which is something that we don't expect. Basically it's like expecting the Romans to run into medieval knights. Technologically and socially I have no problem with it. But as part of a fictional world, some side of me wants to rebel at some point and say that it's an obvious attempt to pander to differing desires; a kitchen sink appraoch. And to an extent all fantasy worlds have to have such similarities with the RW or literature such that we have touchpoints with them, so we can interact with them on some level. But is it too artificial seeming?

Fortunately, there's a solution. Simply stop looking at the countries as parallels. That is, Glorantha is deep enough, and well-written enough that if you consider the countries for what they are, and not what they're compared to for purposes of analogy, suddenly it's all good again. At least I can buy it on that level. They make platemail because they have iron, know how, have a feudal structure, and everything else you need to have platemail produced in a culture. The Romans had steam power, theoretically (presented and rejected); they could have done platemail if it had made sense to anyone at the time.

That said, what I wouldn't want to play would be Arthurian Legends in Lokarnos. I'd want to play Lokarnos sorts of Legends in Lokarnos, events that represented the culture as a unique experience. Otherwise I would get the sense that the world was only there in it's present form in order to deliver some parallel to literature. And that's not particularly interesting to me (though others might groove on it).

Mike

[Christopher Kubasik]

Hi Mike,

Just, for the record, note that "Bronze Age" hasn't been bandied about for about half the thread now.  We cut it loose some time ago, and have been pretty much on the same page you're on.

That said, I think you bring up an excellent, excellent point about not trying to "map" real world anologies onto Glorantha cultures.  This "mapping" only gives all the players at the table a chance to avoid digging into the culture of their characters, using a "short hand" of "Well, everyone knows it's like this," and not really having to sort out what "this" is.

My main concern was the kitchen sink problem -- always going back to, "Why is this all here?"  The answer seems to be, as you suggest, "Because it is."  Given that, what is the world actually like. That's what needs to be explored.

We can infer and "fill in" elements about these cultures from our assumptions about other cultures -- but only so much.  The main guide needs to be what is already established.  In other words, my goal will be to reach out to real world anologies when there is nothing at hand in the Glorantha material, and only grab at things which grow naturally from my understanding of the material at hand.  To work from the analogies first is to short-circuit the whole process.

Take care,
Christopher

[Nick Brooke]

That said, I think you bring up an excellent, excellent point about not trying to "map" real world anologies onto Glorantha cultures.  This "mapping" only gives all the players at the table a chance to avoid digging into the culture of their characters, using a "short hand" of "Well, everyone knows it's like this," and not really having to sort out what "this" is.

I'd add a nuance to that. I wouldn't ever recommend one-to-one mapping of Gloranthan cultures to Real World analogies. But if you make it clear (as Narrator) that there are several partially-valid analogies for the cultures you're working with, you can have hours of fun... and your players won't be able to take their background for granted.

Thus the dear old Reaching Moon Megacorp's "Graeco-Roman Hellenistic-Byzantine Islamic-Soviet Franco-English Ingsoc-Dune" inspired Lunars...

My goal will be to reach out to real world anologies when there is nothing at hand in the Glorantha material, and only grab at things which grow naturally from my understanding of the material at hand.  To work from the analogies first is to short-circuit the whole process.

Yep, excellent. Choose analogies because they fit the Gloranthan situation, not because you want to have that culture in Glorantha.

You've had my take on Mediaeval Glorantha earlier in this thread: here's a few seminar transcripts and an essay on the multiple Lunar analogies we've used for fun and profit: The Lunar Way Seminar; a digression about Lunar Cultures (that bookmark's relevant, but you might enjoy the whole piece); and the notorious Soviet Analogy.

Warning: Issaries, Inc. are a fine upstanding American company and do not condone the use of anachronistic left-wing political analogies for their Lunar Empire. Out of consideration, please conceal any French Revolutionary, Soviet, Kafkaesque or 1984-inspired references deep within your published work...

Cheers, Nick

[Christopher Kubasik]

Good morning everybody,

I want to thank everyone so much for their input on this thread.  I came with specific questions and concerns, and now have the answers I was looking for.

However, the thread seems to be going in a bit of a circle now.  So, in uniquely Forge fashion, I'm calling it closed.

Other thoughts about parrallels and references between Glorantha cultures and real world cultures can happily be taken up in whole new shiny threads.

Thanks again,

Christopher

[AnyaTheBlue]

* second only to Bill & Ted's Bogus Journey, the ultimate heroquest movie.

Nick, you just broke my brain.

You're right, of course.  But  that means that the big rock outcropping where Kirk kills the Gorn is actually an entrance to the Underworld.  Good Grief!

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

This thread is closed, by Christopher. As the initiator of the thread, he has that privilege.

Please don't post to it again.

The Hero Quest has no official moderator beyond myself and Clinton, so it follows general Forge rules. See the Stickies in the Site Discussion forum for the netiquette involved.

Thanks,
Ron