Why no mind control?

[Wart]

One problem is that a Possessor with Hop can effectively take over a PC whenever it likes, unless the PC succeeds in
his/her resistance roll.

One way to avoid this could be to say that Possessors try to avoid possessing sorcerers, because that tends to really piss off all the demons bound to a sorcerer. Alternately, demons can tell when someone's possessed and any demon bound to a sorcerer who gets possessed will try and free the sorcerer, else their supply of their Need could get cut
off.

[Mike Holmes]

On 2001-09-15 17:40, Blake Hutchins wrote:
From a roleplaying perspective, mind control often creates more problems than it does opportunities for interesting play. The reason is simple: players hate being mind-controlled and will often do whatever it takes to get control back. I've been on both GM and player sides here, and I myself have to admit I dislike having control of my character taken away.

So it induces a visceral response in the players. Hmm.... seems like a good idea to me. What response would you expect of somebody who was mind controlled? Yes, I think it has great capacity for horror potential. Should control be taken away for long? No, that does damage protagonism. Resolve what happens while mind controlled quickly and get back to where the player can play. Same with being dead. Don't like having ressurection or peole survive mind control. Then kill em and have em make a new character. Same problem.

In Vampire, the main paranoia of players revolves around the fear of mind-control, and I think it makes for lazy GMs who ignore the political intrigue in favor of a "you are in my power" approach to the issue of manipulation. I once played a mind-controller who essentially took over the rest of the party (blood-bond) without their being aware of it. Though I kept it secret from them and very, very low-key, the fact remains that by doing so, I deprotagonized these characters.

So, don't abuse the ability as a GM? OK, good advice in general for GMs in RPGs. Is mind control more subject to this? Probably. So, yes, be careful with it. Oh, yeah, don't be lazy. That's bad too.

When the players found out, they immediately took action to escape the control, even to the point of having their characters commit suicide.

In my experience, mind-control scenes involving the control of players tend to be strained and somewhat less effective.

Again, what would you expect the players to do? Have their characters' accept that they were under somebody elses influence? Or are you saying that you allowed them to continue to play their characters when they were supposed to still be under control and they played foul and killed themselves? I don't get it.

BTW, less effective than what? at doing what?

Would the following be an abuse of mind control? In an episodic game start one session with a situation in which you describe the PC coming too in a room with three dead and dismembered bodies. All the evidence in the room points in general to the PC having committed these heinous acts. All except for the Aramaic handwriting in blood on the wall that contains a clue. A dramatic use of Mind Control by the GM.

Still don't like the idea of a player being Mind Controlled in combat? Well, it is a whopping powerful power. To the extent that you can cause a character to do things against their will, you may as well have killed them. That's how I tend to think of it, as a death which the character may survive if it's lucky enough to have the controlling creature not kill it. So, on balance a power like this is more powerful than any attack that could kill the character and given it's particular limitations should be treated as such. I find the best limitation on this sort of power is to make it very fickle and of limited duration. Also limiting what kind of actions you can make the PC perform makes it more manageable. The Mind Control power in Champions is designed with this balance in mind and may give you a good idea of how it balances.

But for a narrativist I'd think this would just be another neat story element. Just handle with care. Same with nukes, BTW.

Mike Holmes

[Mike Holmes]

Oooh, just thought of another fun one. Falls under body control or:

2.D. Partial control of the body. The character may have control of the head or half the body or whatever, but the demon has the rest.

Evil Dead anybody? This is fun because the player can actually play the part of the horrified/angered head or whatever while an arm or something tries to kill somebody. Character may have to wrestle self. Interesting to play with variations on who feels what.

Mike

[Ron Edwards]

Mike,

The trouble is that, historically, Mind Control has never been handled with care in Narrativist terms. I think that its use in RPGs has almost always been abusive toward what I think of as Narrativist goals. Character-body-control grades into character-mind-control grades into character-takeover very quickly.

GM: He has mind controlled you!
Player: Damn. OK, I try to resist.
GM: You fail. You shoot Bob.
Player: But ...! Sigh, OK. I struggle against it.
GM: No! He's mind-controlled you! You love him!
Player: I do??
GM: Yes! You feel utter loyalty to him wash through your soul.
Other players (referring to the mind-controlled PC): WE KILL HIM.
Player: Yes, please, thank God.
GM: You guys are lousy, soreheaded role-players!

That's not to say it has to be like that, but my little example is NOT a parody.

I suggest that an RPG which attempts to correct the decades-old history of abuse associated with Mind Control would deserve an entire design exercise of its own. I'd like to see it, but I didn't want Sorcerer to be it; I wanted the game to about the trouble you get into when you DO have control over yourself.

Best,
Ron

[Tar Markvar]

The only time I've ever played a "mind-control" situation (outside of the good-ole Vampire: the Masquerade "Drop the weapon" Dominate stuff) was in a home-brew game I ran some years back. The characters were in risk of going into frenzy, at which point their actions were taken over by a demigod of Chaos and Wildness. This is, in a way, a combination of the examples, since it's both a character flaw (to resist was a roll of Rage vs. Humanity) AND being controlled by an outside entity.

What I did was simply have them go blank, and come to some time later without knowledge of what happened. They'd have to find out what they did and deal with it. It wasn't a matter of "You kill Joe and Tammy, and then you eat them and run about naked." It was, "The Beast runs with you. You wake up in a dumpster with a severed arm grasped firmly in your hand."

Still, they knew it was going to happen, and their master warned them, "The more you give in, the tighter control I have over you." They knew that giving in to the Chaos that gave them power would end with them losing themselves. In the end, that became a real fear, and they turned against their lord.

I guess in that case it wasn't so much something forced on them as a consequence of their choices. Still, I think it worked out well, story-wise.

-Tar

[Ron Edwards]

Tar,

The Sorcerer equivalent of what you're describing is probably best modeled with loss of Humanity to 0, possibly due to a Taint, which in Sorcerer is all ABOUT losing Author-power over your character (at least as presented in the main rules).

I still think that, given the following,
- Possession
- Taint
- Confuse

... that there's plenty of room for the ENJOYABLE sorts of "mess with player-character actions" in the game. What I did not want was the situation that I presented above in my un-humorous, all-too-real example.

Best,
Ron

[Tar Markvar]

The only time I've ever played a "mind-control" situation (outside of the good-ole Vampire: the Masquerade "Drop the weapon" Dominate stuff) was in a home-brew game I ran some years back. The characters were in risk of going into frenzy, at which point their actions were taken over by a demigod of Chaos and Wildness. This is, in a way, a combination of the examples, since it's both a character flaw (to resist was a roll of Rage vs. Humanity) AND being controlled by an outside entity.

What I did was simply have them go blank, and come to some time later without knowledge of what happened. They'd have to find out what they did and deal with it. It wasn't a matter of "You kill Joe and Tammy, and then you eat them and run about naked." It was, "The Beast runs with you. You wake up in a dumpster with a severed arm grasped firmly in your hand."

Still, they knew it was going to happen, and their master warned them, "The more you give in, the tighter control I have over you." They knew that giving in to the Chaos that gave them power would end with them losing themselves. In the end, that became a real fear, and they turned against their lord.

I guess in that case it wasn't so much something forced on them as a consequence of their choices. Still, I think it worked out well, story-wise.

-Tar

[contracycle]

I think one of the major functions of mind control in Vamp is to draw a strong line between the Kindred and the Kine.  I liked Ventrue characters; I think in Vamp the mental control was a very important piece of the setting, although this is not to say it does not challenge player control of character.  My GM was good, though, and played my victims as plagued by confusion about the motives for their own actions, which in one memorable scene nearly lead to the suicide of one such herd-member.  Incidentally, I never once used Dominate in combat, IIRC.  But this was partly because the GM refused to let me have an easy ride with the mental powers - as above, unless one knows the victim very well, its hard to alter thoughts/behaviour without pushing the victim toward major mental disorder, IMO.

Another factor was heavy, and I mean HEAVY, control of how much of the Grand Scheme your flunkies knew (I was Prince of Krakow) because none of them would stand up to even cursory examination by the heavy hitters.  Meetings with such heavy hitters had to be carefully controlled, and I have seen myself and other players refuse to meet certain people because of fear of this ability... which to my mind reinforced the genre setting wonderfully. (Nobody lies to the Prince.  Nobody.)  

One of the functions that this kind of ability serves is to realise a lot of the social interaction stuff that is otherwise quite fuzzy.  Could an average player really make a crack at a character like Alexander, famous for their troop-inspiring charisma?  Probably not, but if this is expressed mechanically it may become more accessible and the masurable in game mechanical terms.  Of course in Vamp its part and parcel of the whole experience, I think that every player in the game pretty mcuh knew what they were letting themselves in for.  I ahve seen mind control done badly, but equally questions about free will in human life (for which mind control is something of a metaphor) are both interesting in valid, but I'll happily conced that it has to be thought about and structured very carefully.

[Bailywolf]

Hey all.. I started this thing, but haven't had much to say recently, so...

In terms of actual difference, just how does begin mind controlled and being very successfuly persuaded actualy differ?  In degree, certainly, but both effectively rob a player of direct character control...

GM:  The Atractive Woman successfuly seduces your character.

PLAYER:  I don't want to be seduced!

GM: Sorry, you rolled so badly, you just slaver over her all night.

PLAYER:  This sucks!  Mom was right!  RPGs are the tool of Satan!


and so on.


By its nature, Mind Control powers remove control from one player and give it into the hands of another... but persuasive, intimidation, social, manipulative, and charismatic abilities modeled through game rules do the same...


I actualy find mind control and mind reading delightful in a game setting... though when I run I use them very sparingly against player characters, and generaly only then with players who might get qa kick out of briefly playing an alternate state of consciousness for the character.  Personal taste I suppose.

I would simply add a new demon Ability... something like an extra (along the lines of Range) which will allow the demon to Control sentient beings (such as humans) who have a Lore of 0.  Means that Demons and Sorcerers are inherently immune, unless something reduces their Lore score...

Mind reading is a simple adendem to Perception... and again, make it work only on those with Lore of 0.  

The Lore 0 restriction neatly sidesteps the player control issue, and still leaves the demon with a useful power to seriously screw with pathetic normals.  

We are talking about Sorcerers as Cosmic Outlaw here... and what better temptation, what worse transgression, than stealing a person's self will...utterly.  Watch the Humanity drop like stones.