GNS and NWN

[Ian O'Rourke]

Okay, I've put this in Actual Play, because it was sort of kicked off by Actual Play issues. I will also say now, I apply NO value judegements in this post :)

Basically, I've been playing NWN for a while now, and I've been involved in a number of campaigns. I'm primarily doing this via Neverwinter Connections, which is a scheduling service for those looking to use NWN for a PnP paper sort of experience. Obviously its different, but that is the overall goal.

One of the issues that arose on that site was clashes of play style. The default seems to be sim/actor - a very extreme form of sim actor in some cases. This seems to be driven by a number of factors, as far as I can see (I may be wrong though):

(1) There is a lot of people who have not played PnP games and as such NWN (and others) are their medium for the role-playing experience.

(2) There is a large majority of people who only have experience of D&D, while some have an outside bet of Shadowrun, some WOD and Palladium (with the odd classic like Traveller).

(3) There is a healthy number of what WotC termed the 'the lost market'. People who played D&D in the early days, still like 1st Edition the best, and are not back with CRPG's.

(4) There are very few people with a wider knowledge of games, the 'industry', etc. Which is fine, but it's just to get a perspective.

Anyway, basically I had experienced problems in game due to me making narrative related decisions, and some people had posted on the forums about bad role-playing, etc (sometimes it's like going back to the 80's and the role-playing and roll-playing debates). A number of threads were also started about matching games to players, another Play Style issue. Basically, a lot of the problems they wrestle with come down to player decisions, and styles of play.

Anyway, GNS has been mentioned, and while the terminology is a bit abused, it has lead to a number of people realising the style of games they are playing, and what they want out of the experience. They have also realised why that does not work sometimes in group situations. I'm even one game where the DM had such a revelation about what his goals are he effectively laid out a social contract in an attempt to get what he wants out of the game.

It's all very interesting, especially since this is like virgin territory, with a lot of people playing in a certain style just because that is how their role-playing history progressed.

Anyway, I found it interesting.

NWC are actually organising a convention for NWN players, it will have bioware guests and talks. One of the talks is play style which will no doubt use the basics of GNS as a terminology as it has already taken root so to speak.

[Andrew Norris]

(duplicate post deleted)

The very short summation of my long post below is: Yes. I think it's an interesting group to study, because this form of episodic on-line roleplaying has fluid membership, so the social contract can change from session to session.

[Andrew Norris]

Hi Ian,

This is "Sweeney Todd", trying to follow Forge user name conventions. :)  I've been using the same service to organize games I run for the past year or more, and became aware of the Forge (and GNS) a few months ago.

Viewing the NWC community, and the games I run and assist with, through the GNS filter has been very edifying to me. I agree with the assessment that most of the players considered "successful roleplayers" focus on Sim/Actor, confining any OOC conversation at all to the DM-only chat channel. (The equivalent in tabletop play would be to speak in character only, passing notes for any OOC communication.)

At the risk of misusing the jargon, I would say the players who have been in my opinon the most aware of GNS terms have gamed in a Sim/Narr mix; that is, exploration of character, but a character who verges on stereotype or parody so that they can apply what they feel is "proper attention" to the themes that interest them. (I find this more in players who are new to NWN; those around for more than a few months seem to pick up that heavy sim is the default playstyle and adjust to suit.)

My example would be a recent addition to one campaign, whose character is a wife and mother, a retired adventurer who has taken up her sword again to be the bread-winner while her husband recuperates from a wound. This character would be considered a walking parody in a tabletop game, with lots of "Oh you poor dears" and conversations about cuisine. But in a game where OOC conversation is heavily discouraged by convention, this comes across as fairly effective. My analogy would be that an actor's makeup looks garish and clown-like from the front row, but natural further back.

I've spent some time engaging players and other DMs in issues I've read about on the Forge, and I do consider it effective. The majority of my players, when offered the opportunity to discuss what themes they would like to explore in future sessions, said something along the lines of "Whatever you have planned is fine." This did not come from apathy -- they've done an excellent job of fleshing out their characters. Rather, they feel that because the game engine is typically used for heavy sim of environment, it would be unfair of them to me (the DM) to ask to travel to new and distant places. In this case the Myth of Reality actually does apply.  To break this concern I've introduced dream sequences and other elements, such as treating travel distance as abstract, but I recognize I'm swimming against the stream.

[Ron Edwards]

Hate to do it to you, Ian, but this thread is destined for the GNS forum. Please don't edit your initial post.

Now to it! One thing that might help is that a lot of people don't know much about Neverwinter Nights, or why it was a close contender for the Diana Jones Award at GenCon 2003. Can anyone, preferably one of the new fellows from the discussion Ian's talking about, provide some orientation?

Best,
Ron

[Marco]

Fascinating.

This makes me want to check out NWN.

I don't have too much to add save this: in one of the weekly games I run we have a 17 year old player whos experience has *solely* been with PK-Server Ever Quest (that's Player-Kill Server--where "the guys who slaughter your newbie" hang out).

I'd expect an extremely goal-oriented/combat oriented/treasure ('drop') oriented player--but so far that hasn't happened. It may be due to precieved social pressures (he's by far the youngest person in the group, less than half the age of some of the other players)--but so far he's been (IMO) pretty receptive to the groups standard mode of play.

In the NWN community is there any standing prejdice against people solely experineced in EQ (or more specifically PK-EQ)?

-Marco
[Also: the non-myth of reality is *fascinating*--I wonder if that could be somehow incorporated into a game without a computer. It'd be a social contract thing, for sure--but still ... a very mechanistic game world? ]

[Ian O'Rourke]

I will reply, but a bit pressed at the moment. A few things:

- Moving the thread. Fine. No problem.

- My name on NWC is Fandomlife (just to avoid confusion should the odd person come into the discussion.

- I'll try and get the other GNS 'advocate' (for want of a better word) on NWC to come in as well. As I find the topic fascinating.

More later.

[Andrew Norris]

Ron, Thanks for the heads-up on the thread-move. I think it'd be interesting to dissect an online session or campaign, so a later Actual Play thread might follow from this.

Neverwinter Nights is a third-person isometric computer game using the third edition D&D rules. Out of the box, it came with a fairly lackluster CRPG campaign to play. Where the game shines is that every copy includes the Toolset, an application that allows you to build game sessions ("modules") of your own. Modules are divided into areas; each area uses a given tileset. (e.g. if your character leaves a tavern and steps into the street, you experience a small load delay and appear in a different location.) In addition, a Dungeon Master's client allows you to play as a DM, or superuser -- you can jump from place to place, create objects or modify them, and are invisible to the players unless you specify otherwise.

Where the Myth of Reality comes into play is that sessions almost always take place within a given module. This means it's physically impossible for players to travel to a location that you haven't created -- it's just not there. Similarly, if you want a kindly old man to come along and ask for help, you need to have previously created him in the toolset (or at least a generic character whom you can coopt for the role.) You also get a lot of interesting little issues such as the fact that some types of areas are easier to simulate than others (e.g. the Castle tiles are in the City tileset, not the Rural one, so you'll not see a castle on a high hill in the wilderness unless third-party addons are used.)

Another interesting issue is that the target audience is somewhat different from tabletop D&D. I've had several players who came into the community from MMORPGs such as EverQuest, where roleplaying consists of Exploration of Character layered on top of a heavy gamist element.  Others come from playing single-player CRPGs and have no tabletop RPG experience at all. The majority of my players have a gaming history similar to my own: professionals in their twenties and thirties who have come back to the hobby after some time away from it, and find NWN to be the most convenient way to resume their involvement. (There's not travel time to get to a session; if you can block out x hours the same time each week, you're in. One of our current games has a player from each US timezone and one from Sweden.)

The culture at Neverwinter Connections is where I've had most of my experience. The majority of NWN users play elsewhere; most of them download scripted single-player modules and play them offline. The next largest group plays on "Persistent Worlds", which are very much small-scale MMORPGs and feel to me like Gamism mixed with soap opera. :) Those of us that simulate tabletop RP using the medium are in a definate minority.

Some links for more information if you're curious about the product:

http://nwn.bioware.com - the official site
http://www.neverwinterconnections.com - the matchmaking site Ian and I frequent, and the focal point for DMed games. In months past, the "role-play vs. roll-play" debate used to take place here regularly, with the implicit assumptions that the only two types of play were Simulationist and Gamist, and that Sim was inherently better. Discussion of GNS elements has progressed from that point, fortunately.

[Ian O'Rourke]

In the NWN community is there any standing prejdice against people solely experineced in EQ (or more specifically PK-EQ)?

The NWN community at large, probably not. On NWC (Neverwinter Connections), which is largely a PnP influenced NWN community, there certainly is a bias towards those who play in a Diablo-style. This is obviously an extreme form of gamism, but there is quite a bit of negative sentiment towards it I think. Largely driven by bad experience on the default NWN on-line service: Gamespy.

At the same time though, strong Gamist play is quite popular on NWC, though it could be said a few are not yet willing to accept the term (not that it matters).

I myself play in a Sunday game which is completely gamist, the four characters exist just as playing pieces to beat the dungeon and get to the final level (of the dungeon). It's been great fun.

http://www.fandomlife.net/80256a3900651eec/b/DOMT-5RDQ68

[Ian O'Rourke]

I've decided to split my comments into numerous posts for ease of reference (I think). At the moment I'm focusing on NWN and GNS – the community, largely NWC (Neverwinter Connections) and the game and GNS factors and influences.

First, it must be said that one of the strengths of the NWN platform, and I think it is a platform, rather than a game, is that GNS principles, as they pertain to actual decisions in play, are a factor. The platform may alter things slightly, but it's certainly true the full GNS range can be exhibited. I believe this in itself makes NWN a very good tool.

I am not familiar with any other computer-based RPG that comes close enough to replicating the PnP experience to such an extent that analysing actual play in a GNS sense becomes useful – but in NWN it does. Indeed, a lot of the 'conflict' concerning the way people approach NWN is effectively GNS differences. In fact, from my experience, I would say the GNS differences get magnified, but I realise this may be just an experience factor unique to me. Or it may be the type if audience NWN supports. Not sure.

As an example, the issue surround Diablo-style play and it's hatred by all concerned is largely an extreme form of Gamism to me, that is so extreme (I'm not sure PnP is capable of being extreme as the speed of play cannot be as efficient) even other people making Gamist decisions (ones we would understand as quite extreme) find repugnant.

It's also possible on NWN to find SIM/ACTOR players who are so strong in their approach they can effectively spam a game. This is also something else I've found unique to the NWN platform. As Andrew indicates this is sometimes driven by people trying to make their characters stand out. This approach usually involves characters who are all background, and the players just play them...period.

Conflicts have also arisen, as Andrew mentions, which, even though the terminology is often different, as it's often terminology from a CRPG environment, the issue is actual play differences. We have had debates in the past when people have insisted anyone who is not role-playing 'realistically to their situation at all times' is not role-playing properly. This was another manifestation of the default, I'd say extreme SIM, play.

The NWC site also has a ratings/matching system, which has never worked 100% (and I think never will, but that is not a debate for here), my point is that system has problems at its heart, and those problems are also actual play (or GNS) issues.

So GNS has found a place I think in giving a community a language to resolve these issues. While it's in embryonic form, and some abuse of terms occurs, the point is the language is now clear enough that people are not speaking across each other – and the few that still do are probably lost causes.

You have to remember the NWN community is die-hard D&D in a lot of cases (if they are PnP at all), to the extent some believe all other games are just copies of D&D (a few have raised this issue with me), or anything like Buffy drama points is just cheating. At times it can be like trying to debate movies with people who've only seen 'Plan 9 From Outer Space', their exposure to alternatives, whether they like them or not, is just not present. And that was not meant as a slam, just as the only way I can describe the embryonic nature of what is going on. I actually quite like D&D.

Anyway, trying to put some words together on the 'road to Narrativism' within NWN.

A few of the threads that happened on NWC, for wider context (probably not essential reading):

http://forums.neverwinterconnections.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=news;action=display;num=1060055863

http://forums.neverwinterconnections.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=news;action=display;num=1060350072

[TheShireReeve]

Hi,

Ian asked me to contribute here, thus breaking two years of lurking-due-to-having-nothing-relevant-to-add. He thought my experiences might be useful to this discussion. He was also good enough to link to a couple of threads on the NWC forums I had assumed consigned to internet history as well, where I had touched on GNS issues.

I don't know there's much to add over what Ian and Andrew have already said, as regards the state of the community. The release of Neverwinter Nights roughly coincided with the disvolving of my PnP group, and I have spent a lot of time in NWN games since then. Recently I have been increasingly picky, and limiting myself to games that have potential to address my GNS preferences. I tend to keep myself to NWC, and recently I haven't been that active there either.

As has been stated, the preference, at least among those who want to use NWN as a PnP-style game, is for actor-sim stuff, predominantly exploration of setting or situation, though character stuff isn't out of the question by any means. I was pleasantly surprised when I applied for a game with a character background that was all kicker, and had it fully integrated in the game by the DM (who went on to request similar from other players). That said, that's the exception. There's still a great deal of D&D focus, and people struggling with play-style issues.

There's a lot of 'grabbing-the-ball' going on, players fighting for attention. Within NWC this isn't helped by the review system which, IMO, tends to reward distinctive, eccentric characters, the sort that wouldn't last more than one session in a PNP session due to peer-ridicule.

That said, I find positives in some of the approaches and initiatives around. A number of the 'top-rated' players (according to aforementioned review system) have been gravitating to a server called 'Crimson Spire', which is ostensibly a persistent world, but really will be a setting for a number of player-authored campaigns and single sessions (at least that's the intention). The play-style debate continues (today we had tavern-rp versus mataplot), but, in general, most seem to have a good focus about where roughly things are to go.

Ian and I have spoke on several occasions about the feasibility of an abashedly narrativist game with NWN. It seems possible, and I'm working to get something going at the moment. Might be an interesting case study.

Charles

[contracycle]

Some questions if you can help:

Can you tell us more of what its like to actually use?
What sort of spatial scale can the toolset create?
Are there limits to the number of mobile character entities?
Can the setting be mechanised and have moving parts?
What sort of facilities for speech exist, if any?
Are there tilesets for non-fantasy settings?
Can the resolution rules be modded?
Can you run peer-to-peer over the net?
Does the toolset include character modelling?
To what extent can character models interact with their environment?
How is looting and equipping organised?

Perhaps some more later

[TheShireReeve]

I'll have a go at some of these.

Can you tell us more of what its like to actually use?

Playing, NWN is almost the reverse of table-top gaming, in terms of time consumption. Combat, spellcasting, object use is point and click mostly, and can be over in seconds unless the enemy is particularly numberous or challenging. Conversation however, given it must be typed, takes disproportionately longer. Cross posting and misunderstanding is fairly common, and subtely nuanced speech is difficult to pull off.

The DM client is probably less intuitive than most would like. Long 'chooser' and 'creator' menus allow access to all the objects in the module, and NPCs can be possessed to use them (controlling groups of NPCs is tricky if they don't have a pre-scripted behaviour). Interestingly, in NWN, you'll often see multiple DMs running a game to better co-ordinate things.

The toolset has a steep learning curve and a lack of documentation, but can be incredibly powerful. The builder can lay down background tiles, then include doors, objects creatures to interact with. It uses a powerful c-style scripting language which allows behavious to be modified.

What sort of spatial scale can the toolset create?

The maximum size of an area is 32x32 tiles though the scales are a bit vague. In a external tileset a house occupies one tile, but there's a tardis-type effect on entering, since the smallest workable interior is 2x2 tiles.

Are there limits to the number of mobile character entities?

I'm not certain if there is a set maximum of creatures that can be used in one area or module, though in my experience, the limit is going to be set by the hardware running the game. Creating 20-30 creatures in the vicinity of a player is likely to cause their system to slow down horrifically for a few seconds (creating the unpopular phenomenon of lag-death). That said, placed during construction, rather than live, this number of creatures shouldn't present any problem.

Can the setting be mechanised and have moving parts?

If you mean moving walls and platforms sort of thing, no, since floor and walls count as fixed background. Doors is about as far as you can go.

What sort of facilities for speech exist, if any?

There is a group of voicesets for players that can be selected from, but it is limited to stock phrases (and it get's boring hearing 'Hold this spot, let nothing uproot you' too often, for example). Theoretically voice-coms like Roger Wilco could be used in conjunction with NWN, but in practice that only happens for games with multiple DMs. As stated above, there's a prevalent actor-sim approach, where immersion is highly valued and player and character are kept very distinct from each other.

Are there tilesets for non-fantasy settings?

The license is for Forgotten Realms so no. There is however a group working on D20 Modern custom content, which I believe has some modern stuff. I've used a dungeon tileset and visual effects to create a simplistic interior of a spaceship before.

Can the resolution rules be modded?

Pass. Not actually sure what you mean.

Can you run peer-to-peer over the net?

NWN uses a client-server architecture for multiplayer. It comes with both executables from the box, and can be ran fairly transparently. Higher end machines can run client and server as separate processes to increase stability. It doesn't have dedicated servers in the MMORPG style which hundreds of players log into.

Does the toolset include character modelling?

Playable races can be customised, with a variety of heads, hair and skin colours and fat/thin. Clothing can be cusromised too, and is one of the popular ways of making distinctive characters, due to the wide range of custom-made content in this area.

To what extent can character models interact with their environment?

Interaction with the environment is limited to placeable objects which are prescripted to be 'useable'. Chairs, for example, can be scripted to have a PC clicking on them play their 'sit' animation and appear to sit on the chair. More complex uses can be done - one puzzle in the expansion pack single-player campaign involves looking through a crystal ball to see which statue to interact with next to open a portal.

In general though, most interaction with the environment is done through the use of emotes by characters, *Lays out the papers on the table and begins poring over them*, *Pokes head behind wall-hanging to look at the fresco*.

How is looting and equipping organised?

All placeable objects and creatures can have an inventory of items they hold/carry. By default, container-type objects (chests, barrels etc) have a script attached that randomly generates level-appropriate loot.

Equipping is done by drag-dropping items from an inventory pane to a clothing pane or footwear pane etc.

Hope this helps.

Charles

[Andrew Norris]

At the risk of necromancy, I wanted to cross-post some comments I had made in a thread in another subforum here, because I realized my focus was primarily on the NWN medium.

The topic is "No Myth" PCs, and I was addressing the effect this particular medium has had (in my experience) on characterization before and during play.

I think no-myth PCs are actually fairly common. I suppose it depends on how much preparation a player has done as far as backstory.

In the Neverwinter Nights online games I DM, I have a half-and-half mix between players with one to two pages of background and those with almost none. (This might be due to the nature of the game -- players generally seem to spend less prep time, partially because the automated nature of PC creation makes the whole process faster.)

With either type of PC, though, I have had good luck getting the players to collaborate with me on coming up with new details on the fly. Again, some of this may be due to the nature of the medium -- some of them are used to 'hack and slash' games online, and so rejoice that anyone is interested in helping them flesh out backstory.

In one recent campaign, I started in media res -- the characters were in the midst of an infiltration mission. They knew whatever backstory they had written was true, and that they were members of a freelance mercenary company, and that was it. The rest was to be discovered through play. The players riffed off each other to develop their working relationships.

In another game (as a player), I was Annalist and chronicler for a military-themed party celebrating their tenth anniversary. We moved back and forth during the game between the dinner party and a flashback to our group's first mission. Several of us started acting in certain ways during the present day scenes, and then we'd come up with a justification for those actions and feelings during the flashback. Maybe that's "Make your own Myth" instead, but it did have the effect of encouraging our creativity, as we knew things we did would matter "later".

I suppose my point is that No Myth is perhaps easier to do with characters because of the lack of immediacy. In online games of NWN, you can't really do No Myth in terms of setting, because the areas are visible on the screen. As a result, I think my players are much more willing for other elements of the game to be improvisational. This seems like a contradiction, but it works.

I don't know that this post has much to contribute to the theory, but I find it interesting.

If cross-posting like this is considered gauche at the Forge, I'll gladly refrain in future.

Thanks,
Andrew

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Andrew,

The concept of what you're doing is just fine, but here's an idea for how: create a link to the other thread, maybe quote a weeny bit of the post so people can get the idea, and outline some of the conclusions or connections to the thread you're posting in.

But no, you haven't committed any crime, and also, this thread is still young enough to post to. Everyone, chime in. I met a couple of Neverwinter Nights players this week and they had some interesting things to tell me.

Best,
Ron

[contracycle]

Have been meaning to come back to this:

Playing, NWN is almost the reverse of table-top gaming, in terms of time consumption. Combat, spellcasting, object use is point and click mostly, and can be over in seconds unless the enemy is particularly numberous or challenging. Conversation however, given it must be typed, takes disproportionately longer. Cross posting and misunderstanding is fairly common, and subtely nuanced speech is difficult to pull off.

Hmm, interesting but unfortunate.

The toolset has a steep learning curve and a lack of documentation, but can be incredibly powerful.

Unfortunately typical.

The maximum size of an area is 32x32 tiles though the scales are a bit vague. In a external tileset a house occupies one tile, but there's a tardis-type effect on entering, since the smallest workable interior is 2x2 tiles.

How many character models could you fit on a tile?  I'm not sure how big a tile should be though to be.

If you mean moving walls and platforms sort of thing, no, since floor and walls count as fixed background. Doors is about as far as you can go.

Hmm, thats a pity.  no spiked pit traps?  Or could they be done as doors?  

As stated above, there's a prevalent actor-sim approach, where immersion is highly valued and player and character are kept very distinct from each other.

I'd object to the use of immersion in this context but never mind.  

Can the resolution rules be modded?

Pass. Not actually sure what you mean.

Can I strip out whatever procedures or DLL's or whatever that contain the D20 mechanisms and replace them with my own resolution system?  Could the system be modified to run GUPRS, say?  I'm expecting the answer will be No but...

Clothing can be cusromised too, and is one of the popular ways of making distinctive characters, due to the wide range of custom-made content in this area.

That sounds good.  Do you have any idea what the process of creating an item entails?

All placeable objects and creatures can have an inventory of items they hold/carry. By default, container-type objects (chests, barrels etc) have a script attached that randomly generates level-appropriate loot.

I take it this is your basic cash-n-carry D&D pseudo-economy?

How about building monsters and whatnot, or are these assumed to be made available through the publishers?

Thanks