DnDQuest

[kalyptein]

With all the threads about porting the HQ system to other games, here's just what you need...another one!

I've been DMing a long running game (3 years now).  It started as a solo game (one player other than me), as a kind of skunkworks for me to tinker with different styles of GMing and an exploration of 3rd ed DnD.  It just finished a larger, group-play span of about 6 months, and is returning to its solo and experimental roots.  One experiment is switching to the HQ rules.  The game has reached a power level where stating NPCs is a nightmare, and I feel the system is breaking down.  Among other things, I was running out of damage types that could actually hurt the PC.  Also, any kind of mass combat is a grinding bore.  HQ seemed like a great way to address a lot of issues.

Homeland and occupation keywords are pretty straight forward.  Occupation maps pretty directly to class.  Homeland is essentially a bonus set of abilities that the character should have had, but couldn't really under the old rules.  The PC was born a peasant in an unsettled land and we frequently gave him woodland and area knowledge type skills under the table.

Magic was the biggest change, not surprisingly.  We had already adopted a spell point system and I translated this directly into an ability called Mana, which all casters have.  To use a magical ability costs 1 Mana per 10 points of ability, so "Fireball 10w2" (50 points) costs 5 Mana.  In extended contests, the use of a spell provides an Edge equal to a third of its total rating, so that same fireball would give an edge of 17 (assuming no mastery cancellations).  Additional AP can be bid if the caster can provide a risk-for-payoff narration, such as running into the midst of his foes before hurling his fireball, catching more of them.  The goal here was to keep the flavor of DnD magic, big bangs but in limited supply.

Several metamagic feats were translated by having abilities that counteract penalties.  The Extend Spell feat becomes the Extend Spell ability, able to negate increased duration penalties one for one.

Sorcerers and priestly types use Affinities and Feats, straight from the HQ book.  Wizards have Theory abilities which work much like Grimoires, giving a common rating at which they can use any of the spells covered.  They still have to prepare the spells in advance, but can invent new spells within a body of Theory for 1 HP and some time and money in game.

This is pretty much all untested.  We've only had the chance to do one session, and that contained a grand total of 2 simple contests, neither related to magic.  This is also my first experience using the HQ system and my ideas could turn out to be a complete mess.  Has anyone else tried for a DnD flavor with HQ?  Did it work?  What about the magic/edge idea?  Brilliant?  Blithering idiocy?

If anyone's interested in this, I can post further updates.  I'm hoping for an extended contest in the next session, real soon now.

Alex

[hix]

I'll be interested in those updates. I'm thinking of convincing my DM to port our on-hiatus D&D game over to HQ (once I've tested the system out - and before that, bought it) myself.

Steve

[soru]

the tricky thing about this is deciding exactly which distinctive features of the D&D rules you want to keep.

Off the top of my head:

there are literally thousands of named spells

almost all spells have distinct mechanical effects

all spells are defined in advance of the game session

some spells are massively more powerful than others

the most powerful spells can only be cast by powerful wizards

many spells have unique 'hard-coded' numbers in them, such as lasting 9 rounds or saving at -5

spells are a critical resource to be managed across multiple combats

hitpoints are a secondary resource to be managed across multiple combats

characters almost always have a chance to react to an unexpectedly powerful opponent by running away before they get killed

spells can't be cast at a variable power level

some spells can wipe out very large numbers of low level creatures

high level fighter types are very resistant to the spells that can do the above

high level rogue types are virtually immune to the spells that can do the above

high level mages are vulnerable to spells, unless they take time to cast defensive magic

high level mages are very vulnerable to high level rogues, unless they take time to cast defensive magic

some spells will hurt but usually not kill a single target

lots of spells have a non-lethal effect such as charm or sleep

some of those spells are completely useless against anyone high level

strong defensive magic is available

powerful utility magic is available

high level fighter types can beat large numbers of any lower levelled creature

throw enough low levels at a high level fighter and they will eventually be worn down

massed archers are good, especially at lower levels

high level archers need deadly magical arrows to be useful

healing magic is usually but not universally available

healing magic is always needed for everyone involved in any serious fight

random char generation option

alignments

class system

soru

[Scripty]

I've been working on a Dark Sun/HeroQuest conversion as well as a Midnight/HeroQuest conversion. I have a similar "Spell Points" style mechanic for Midnight (to represent Spell Drain) but it doesn't work exactly like the one you describe. I've also treated the classes a little differently from standard occupations. The average Cleric is pretty much the equivalent of a HeroQuest Devotee (in Dark Sun). If I were to do a conversion of Forgotten Realms (quite an undertaking that) I might scale them down to (roughly) the equivalent of a HeroQuest Initiate in comparison with the other occupations.

I'd be more than happy to share what I have with you, if for no other reason than to see how I did it and how you might want to do it differently.

[Calithena]

Hi Kalyptein!

One of the 3e games I'm involved with is currently thinking about making this transition as well. If you're happy running using other people's worlds and adventures, 3e remains viable at higher levels, but if you're the kind of GM that always wants to push the envelope, make new stuff up, and so on, 3e is a bad game. I almost wonder if the way the market is going will push developers into playing games like HeroQuest and Donjon to explore and create settings and adventures in real-time play and then hiring bright high school students to translate the stuff into d20 for saleability once it's done. God, I hope not, but in any case d20 is a terrible development tool for unfinished ideas. But I digress.

I think taking the port to a new system as an opportunity to reinvent the characters is key. If you get hung up on translation, you'll go insane.

Just a comment on your "Fireball 10w2" example though: do you really need to add mana to the game to do this? I would have thought that Contests would have provided enough simulation of this by themselves! If the character has a Total Failure, then they blow themselves up, perhaps, but on other failures you just say: all magical abilities are Hurt or Impaired etc. until you have time to rest and refresh them. So that failing magic contests effectively attrits the magic (all the characters' use of magic) over time.

That alone might be enough for me, but if you port over the Talisman rules, and put an onerous time limit on Grimoire use - something which definitely has OD&D roots BTW - then the casters could only use them once per day per spell regardless, at least in critical situations, if I'm reading that right. If not you could add such a rule, which would really emphasize the 'dying earth' roots of the D&D magic system (you get that spell exactly once per day without your book, buddy!).

HeroQuest also allows Bardic magic to finally come into its own in D&D type settings, with Epics and Songs. I've written some stuff on that.

I'll conclude by giving my private responses to Soru's questions:

"there are literally thousands of named spells"

Not a problem - in fact, HeroQuest allows a real justification for the fact that "Otiluke's Freezing Sphere" can be used in multiple ways for the first time, or "Pyrotechnics" in two. Why not do this with all spells - "Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound" is waiting to come into its own for the first time!

"almost all spells have distinct mechanical effects"

This goes, and good riddance.

"all spells are defined in advance of the game session"

Ditto.

"some spells are massively more powerful than others"

This will be driven by description and ability rating. Also, by limits on certain effects. For example, if you allowed "Time Stop", you could declare that such an effect (following the magic table) would work at D-100, making it only viable for characters of extremely high power and long experience. You could have Time Stop 5w2 on your sheet, but it still wouldn't do anything at that point.

"the most powerful spells can only be cast by powerful wizards"

See above.

"many spells have unique 'hard-coded' numbers in them, such as lasting 9 rounds or saving at -5"

Gone, and good riddance.

"spells are a critical resource to be managed across multiple combats"

If you have multiple combats, then failed contests will attrit magic casting levels, as suggested above.

"hitpoints are a secondary resource to be managed across multiple combats"

If you have lots of fights with mooks, then the mooks ALWAYS trade 7 AP for Hurts, and Hurts don't disappear just because you're the winner of a contest. This way you can duplicate that gradual sense of attrition directly through the HeroQuest rules.

"characters almost always have a chance to react to an unexpectedly powerful opponent by running away before they get killed"

This is a matter of DM fairness, I think, in any game. Now, if you describe the thing as a 500 foot long snake and they attack anyway, they deserve to get whacked, but most D&D players of merit accept that as well.

"spells can't be cast at a variable power level"

Sure they can - you just specify an effect, apply appropriate modifiers to the contest if any, and roll!

"some spells can wipe out very large numbers of low level creatures"

Since large numbers of low level creatures can and in some cases should be statted up as a single "Kobold Horde", a wildly successful magic contest wil provide this effect in HeroQuest too.

"high level fighter types are very resistant to the spells that can do the above"

So they should take Survive Explosion 2w3 or whatever, if they want to do this, or maybe something more descriptive that allows them this power.

"high level rogue types are virtually immune to the spells that can do the above"

Again, Dodge Magical Explosion 15w4 is what the high level rogue should aspire to.

"high level mages are vulnerable to spells, unless they take time to cast defensive magic"

Again, player option based on abilities.

"high level mages are very vulnerable to high level rogues, unless they take time to cast defensive magic"

Again, doesn't see a problem - the scholarly wizard doesn't have abilities that let them see the thief coming. Of course player choice of abilities will often overcome these classic weaknesses of the stock classes, but no biggie there.

"some spells will hurt but usually not kill a single target"

Like magic missile? I don't get the problem. Also, why does it matter if mooks are staggering and reeling around the field after a fireball instead of burned to death.

On the other hand, if I were running D&D Heroquest, I would adopt a rule that said unimportant foes are always considered slaughtered after any victory against them, and would provide appropriately gruesome descriptions to satisfy my player's (and my own) repressed sadistic impulses.

"lots of spells have a non-lethal effect such as charm or sleep"

That's OK - D&D charms are effectively augments to social skills, while sleep victories cause sleep instead of harm. The problem?

"some of those spells are completely useless against anyone high level"

This has always been a bug in D&D to me, not a virtue.

"strong defensive magic is available"

Is in HeroQuest too, if the player specifies it properly.

"powerful utility magic is available"

Some of this consistently breaks D&D games and needs to be reined in. This magic can be available in HQ too, it just takes the big modifiers in the magic chapter.

"high level fighter types can beat large numbers of any lower levelled creature"

10w4 vs. a pack of 15's? This doesn't go away in HQ.

"throw enough low levels at a high level fighter and they will eventually be worn down"

HQ can partially handle this, if the low levels consistently attack on vectors involving the fighters' weaker abilities. Also, because of the -3 penalty for each successive attacker, if you do gang attacks with a 'horde as many' option you can get some of this too. I should also add that this feature of OD&D is no longer really present in 3e anyway - a pack of 1st levelers can't really hurt a 10th level 3e character the way they could in 1e or OD&D.

"massed archers are good, especially at lower levels"

One thing I hate about D&D is the meaninglessness of someone having the drop on you with a bow. I would add a mastery to the archery rating of anyone in this situation. Again, though, archers seem terribly lethal to me in Heroquest - who has relevant defensive abilities, and even if you do, those modifiers are going to add up over dozens of arrows, IF you want to represent them that way.

"high level archers need deadly magical arrows to be useful"

Good riddance.

"healing magic is usually but not universally available"

Good riddance, unless the PCs take it themselves. I loathe the D&D convention of a low-level cleric in every town - of course, the commonality of magic is an issue playing in Glorantha as well.

"healing magic is always needed for everyone involved in any serious fight"

Again, a D&D bug, not a virtue. YDDMV.

"random char generation option"

You can always roll on tables in the Arduin Grimoire and old Judges Guild products to get ideas for your abilities - but now you don't have to take the bad ones.

"alignments"

Drop-kicked to eternity with pleasure.

"class system"

Occupations handle this fine.

[Der_Renegat]

This will be driven by description and ability rating. Also, by limits on certain effects. For example, if you allowed "Time Stop", you could declare that such an effect (following the magic table) would work at D-100, making it only viable for characters of extremely high power and long experience. You could have Time Stop 5w2 on your sheet, but it still wouldn't do anything at that point.

Why would you want to put lots HP in a spell that gives you nothing before it reaches a rating of 2W5?

all the best

Christian

[Calithena]

Possible reasonable answers:

1) Because the character is obsessed with manipulating space and time, and wants to learn it at any cost. Also, they COULD cast it with hero points at lower levels of mastery, or in certain other circumstances where they got enough augments - and it's an 'instant winner' spell.

2) They won't - hence the broken spells in D&D get gotten rid of.

3) As an alternate system, you could have some of the uberspells work as 'secrets' instead, adding that to your D&D-modified wizardry rules. That is, once a character gets two masteries each in the Grimoire of Translocation and the Grimoire of Temporal Modification (Haste, Slow, etc.), they can pay points to learn the Secrets of Time Stop or Temporal Stasis.

The point isn't that I'm advocating any of these, just that if you want these things in your D&D/HQ game you can have them.

[kalyptein]

I've been working on a Dark Sun/HeroQuest conversion as well as a Midnight/HeroQuest conversion.

I'd love to see what you've worked up.

Just a comment on your "Fireball 10w2" example though: do you really need to add mana to the game to do this?

I originally planned to use something like what you suggest, based on the Essence mechanic from the HQ Exalted thread on this forum.  Basically you have an energy or mana trait, and each use of magical power calls for a simple contest between the power used and the mana.  If mana loses, it gets "wounded" and if it ever suffers a total defeat, the character can't use magic until he has a chance to recover in the appropriate manner.  I opted for this, rather than your suggestion of directly wounding the magic traits, because I wanted to keep a mage's power undiminished, so long as he has power left in him.  Kind of like a gun, there may only be one bullet left, but that won't be much comfort to whoever gets shot.

I ultimately abandoned that mechanic at my player's request.  After a long time of playing, he has a good notion of what he can do, for how long, etc.  The mana point system closely matches what we've used in the game so far, so he isn't suddenly surprised by what he can and can't do.  It may not be the most elegant system, but its simple enough and I can understand where he's coming from.

I hadn't planned on going point by point over Soru's list, but since you did, I'll just say that I agree with you on almost every point.  Much of my drifting of the 3rd ed system has been to make magic more versatile and multi-purpose, and HQ just finishes that job.

"throw enough low levels at a high level fighter and they will eventually be worn down"

HQ can partially handle this, if the low levels consistently attack on vectors involving the fighters' weaker abilities. Also, because of the -3 penalty for each successive attacker, if you do gang attacks with a 'horde as many' option you can get some of this too. I should also add that this feature of OD&D is no longer really present in 3e anyway - a pack of 1st levelers can't really hurt a 10th level 3e character the way they could in 1e or OD&D.

In the multi-player span of this game, we had a 15th level dwarven fighter with a feat called Supreme Cleave (ripped off from a prestige class).  Every time he dropped a foe, he got to take a 5 foot step and launch another attack.  We figured if he charged into massed ranks of an arbitrarily large army of mooks, he could kill ALL of them in 1 round.  Personally, I think masses of enemies are actually more dangerous in HQ than in DnD, which is just fine with me.

"random char generation option"

Since the only PC is a 17th level mage, this is hardly an issue.  On the char-gen note, there's a very nice numeric correspondence between HQ and DnD that's very helpful for conversion.  A character's DnD level x 5 is a good HQ ability rating for his areas of focus.  Formerly 17th level, my player's PC now has a variety of magics at 5w4.  In the HQ scale this places him among the greatest mortals in the world, which seems pretty appropriate.  Starting HQ characters would be about 3rd level in DnD terms, which is around the point at which DnD characters cease to be completely squishy, so the correspondence seems to hold.  This is a big help to me in porting monsters and NPCs.

Alex

[Calithena]

Interesting stuff, Kalyptein. Thanks!

I'm at calithena@juno.com if you want to exchange conversions over email.

Best,

Sean