[Trithofar] Need a little feedback

[LordSmerf]

Ok.  Trithofar is actually a setting that a few of my friends have been using for over ten years and we're trying to get a system locked down.  Anyway, the basics are that you roll Skill number of d10's trying to roll under your relevant Stat.  Skills range from 1 to 30 with 30 being legendary; Stats range from 1 to 8 with an average of 3 or 4.  I'm pretty satisfied with that.  What i'm looking for is feedback on the following two mechanics:

Muppetry Dice
This mechanic is designed to allow a character to attempt things even if they do not have the appropriate skill.  Here's how it works.  Whenever a player wishes to attempt the use of Muppetry they choose to roll any number of d10's.  Every 1 rolled gives you a margin of success of 1, this means that you automatically succeed with a single 1 regardless of your opposition.  If Muppetry is used opposed then both players are successful.  Every 0 rolled indicates severity of a complication.  A single 0 is enough to break equipment, multiple 0's can cause some signifigant complications.  Complications can result in death or they may just be used as adventure hooks for the GM.

1. Initial impressions?
2. Talk to me about numbers, do these seem to come out alright?
3. Did i spell "Muppetry" right?[/list:u]

Skill Damage
We were tying to come up with a systemic damage system that was better for our purposes than HP and such.  Last night we had this crazy brainstorm and came up with this:  All skills are opposed by themselves (i.e. debate vs. debate).  Whenever you get into an opposed roll situation you roll off and count successes.  The loser loses Skill equal to the winner's MoS.  Continue until someone arrives at 0 skill.  Once your opponent is at 0 Skill, you may narrate an outcome appropriate to the action.  Combat allows you to kill, Debate allows you to humiliate your opponent or sway your audience.  If you are trying to affect multiple targets then you total their Skill and treat it as one roll.  Each time skill is reduced, some section of your Opposition may be defeated or swayed to your cause.  The main thing i like about this is that it tracks accross all abilities, it lets you map combat damage as well as social interaction and such.

1. Initial impressions?
2. Is there a good way to distribute penalties in the case of multiple opponents, or is player choice suffecient?
3. Talk to me about pros and cons.  I've got some of them, but i know i've missed some...[/list:u]

Thanks for the time and input.

Thomas

[Andrew Martin]

Muppetry Dice

1. Initial impressions?
2. Talk to me about numbers, do these seem to come out alright?
3. Did i spell "Muppetry" right?[/list:u]

What's the setting and style of the game intended to be? Narrative? Simulation? Step-on-up?

I don't know what you mean by "Muppetry". Perhaps you could explain further? It doesn't seem to match my own personal, real world experience in using skills I'm not skilled in (or other people's for that matter), so the system doesn't seem to be intended to match simulation. :-/

[LordSmerf]

Sure,

The game is really designed entirely for use within the Trithofar setting.  This makes it pretty much equally balanced between Simulationist and Narrativist play.  Trithofar is also used by some of the other players for written story ideas.

Sorry, Muppetry is unclear.  The term is an inside joke, essentially this is bumbling into success.  Think the Pink Panther or Inspector Gadget.  It's a touch of comedy.  I'm pretty much of the mind that without training and sans Defaults (which i want to avoid, for simplicity's sake) you can not actually do something.  That's why i developed Muppetry.  Hopefully that'll help you understand what's going on.

Thomas

[Andrew Martin]

I'm pretty much of the mind that without training and sans Defaults (which i want to avoid, for simplicity's sake) you can not actually do something.

Have a look at this:
http://www.itv.se/~ohm/snowopen.htm

Are you still of the same opinion regarding that it's impossible to do something without skill? The site is about snowmobiling over open water.

[LordSmerf]

It's not that i believe that it's not possible to do something without training in a skill.  That's why the Muppetry dice exist at all.  It is my belief that there are risks involved, and that it is statistically improbable.  It's not entirely accurate, i acknowledge that, but it does act the way i want it to.  It is good to know however, that not everyone likes it...

Thomas

[Mike Holmes]

Why Muppetry? Do Muppets tend to back into success, particlularly? You then cite the Pink Panther and inspector gadget, neither of whom are Muppets. (are you thinking of the Fraggles, maybe?)

In any case, this is very much like Ron's Dumb Luck mechanic for his game Elves. I think you've got an interesting gambling take on it. The real question is how it'll interact with the normal resolution system.

As for the Skill Damage system, that's very much like Hero Quests extended conflict mechanism in some ways. Should work as written, seems to me. Do you roll with your original skill for each "round" or do you use the score modified down by previous conflict?

I'm not sure what you're refering to as far as "distributing penalties". Could you elaborate?

Mike

[LordSmerf]

Ok, Muppetry is sort of an "inside" thing for our local gaming group.  It would probably make more sense (for public consumption) to use the term "Bumble" since that's what i'm getting at.

Currently i'm tossing around the idea of using the modified skill.  Also, a little playtesting has convinced me that i would rather reduce the pools of both players by the number of their opponent's successes instead of using MoS.  This allows the interesting possibility of no one winning...  I'm not sure about this yet.

Looking back at distributing penalties i realized that i didn't explain multiple opponents.  Currently if you are facing multiple opponents (fighting two people, convincing a crowd, etc.) you create a single pool based on the number of people and their skill (exact numbers are still being balanced).  So if i just add total skills together (two seperate skill 2 characters would roll a combined pool of 4) how do i decide which character gets the penalties?  What i've tried most recently is simply penalizing the highest dice first.  That works pretty well, but it increases S&H time...

Thanks for taking the time to provide a bit of feedback.

Thomas

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Thomas,

Sorry it took so long for me to get to this ...

Take a peek at my game Elfs for a pretty focused Muppetry-type mechanic called Dumb Luck. It's exceptionally effective and important during fight scenes.

Also, if you can find a copy, read Extreme Vengeance in painstaking detail and play it if you can. The Schticks associated with the character descriptor "Bumbling," as well as the general mechanic called Coincidence, are also extremely well-designed for a Muppetry-type purpose.

Both of these mechanics (each one embedded in a more generalized set of mechanics in its respective game) result play much along the lines of the obvious answer to this question: "Is Leslie Nielsen more dangerous tied to a chair or not tied to a chair?"

Best,
Ron

[LordSmerf]

Thanks Ron,

The system is kind of on the back burner right now, but i really like the Muppetry concept.  I keep meaning to look at Elfs, but then the same is true of a large number of systems.  Can i get some more info on Extreme Vengence?  Who published when and all that...

Thanks.

Thomas

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

Extreme Vengeance
Author = Tony Lee, cover artist = Dan Smith
Published 1994 by Archangel Entertainment, now long defunct (since 1994, in fact), same publisher as Zero - these were the only two games put out by AE

It's a very slim book, so if it's in your game store, it'll probably be nigh-invisible on the shelf, or possibly even mistaken for a splat-book. The game includes two supplements that are even slimmer (stapled): Maximum Carnage, and Die & Die Again, both of which are pretty good.

Beware the overly-jokey prose style, which tends to cover up the game system and incorrrectly convey that Extreme Vengeance is supposed to be a parody.

Best,
Ron

[Mulciber]

Etymology of muppetry, as said local group connotes it:

In Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels (either that or another Guy Ritchie flick), the chracter played by the same guy in the Transporter asks of Tommy, "Do you have to be such an utter fucking muppet?" or words to that effect.  (After Tommy has done something clearly of no merit whatsoever to their cause.) Clearly the verb form is muppeting, and the action itself is muppetry.

Interesting resonance: on a bb Thomas used to participate in regularly the chatter forum was "Fuckmuppet Central." This occured independently of the local group's use.

[contracycle]

In The Great Escape, which has a really detailed (and terrorist friendly) 3D map of London, when the main character gets shot and is limping about the place he sometimes says "fucken' muppet" under his breath.

In CS, you can be a "rush muppet" with a short life span.  I think its generally that a muppet is a sort of dummy.