Drug-cartels anyone?

[Ingenious]

First off punk, let me point out a few things before you let your mouth write checks that your brain can't possibly even cash. And allow me to play my trump card. My character does indeed NOT have a MAJOR drug addiction. He has a MINOR one. He is not so addicted to his drug of choice to be using it every single HOUR. Once a DAY is enough for him. Much like ME in MY situation with nicotine. Once a day is enough. I don't go around smoking up a storm because I LIKE the effect of a high. In fact, with most drugs there is a tolerance built up over time to where it takes MORE and MORE drugs to get you high. You vacuous insignificant little worm, don't you realize that?(sorry, but I cant help flaming someone that calls me immature; hypocrite = me, since flaming makes someone immature).  My character doesn't freaking care about what 'positive' effect it has on him, but as a PLAYER I DO YOU IDIOT!!!!! And I'm reasonably sure that the seneschal running this adventure would too.
He isn't a junkie, he's like a modern day ATHLETE with a slight drug usage problem.
And what(as a player), might you think is my logic to wanting to know the harmful side effects of the drugs? Because I want to know what the consequences of my actions as a player is on my character. And therefore what consequences the seneschal might be scheming up as he always does.
And you think that I don't know enough real-world knowledge on drugs, eh? Let me throw this down on your silly little empty skull.
Drug types:
OPIATES: CODEINE, used medically as an analgesic, atitussive, anti-diarrheal. Trade names: tylenol with codeine, Robitussin A-C. Street names, T-threes, schoolboy, syrup. Tracable 1-2 days. Short term effects, average dose...mild euphorea, relaxation. physical high drowsiness light-headedness, dry mouth, consitpation, urinary retention, nasuea. Short term, large dose: intense itching flushed skin, dizziness, sedation, confusion, nausea.. overdose symptoms: vomiting, restlessness, seizures, respiratory arrest. Long term effects: tolerance with chronic use. potential for dependency. Taken orally or injested.
HEROIN: no medical use. trade names: diacetylmorphine. street names: H, whiteboy, skag, junk. Tracable 1-2 days. Short term, small dose. Highly addictive, euphoria of first high, for some it is said to be unmatched. dry mouth, flushed skin, heaviness in extremities, depression of central nervous system. nausea or vomiting likely, same with constipation. A rush, followed by nodding out. May feel warm and detached.  Short term, large dose: can lower breathing and heart rate to lethal levels, sedation. Overdose can result in unconsciousness, coma, or death from respiratory failure. Chance of overdose is increased when combined with alcohol and other depressants. Long term: Collapsed veins, infection of heart lining and valves, abscesses, cellulitis, liver disease, pulmary complications(including pneumonia) constipation. Withdrawl symptoms are restlessness, muscle and bone pain, insomnia, diarrhea, vomiting, etc.
It is injected smoked or sniffed
MORPHINE: medically used for relief of pain, labored breathing, suppression of cough, diarrhea: traded as Roxanol, Duramorph, MS Contin, morphine sulfate. Street names: M, morf, dreamer, MS.. etc. Tracable 1-2 days.  Short term, small dose: Primarily used on intensive care patients, Pupillary constriction, blurred vision, impaired night vision, suppression of cough reflex, slightly reduced respiratory rate, sedation, euphoria, relaxation, lethargy, mild anxiety or fear. Short term, large dose: Respiratory depression, somnolence progressing to stupor or coma, clammy skin, skeletal muscle flaccidity. Apnea, circulatory collapse, cardiac arrest, death. Long term effects: High potential for physical and psychological dependance. tolerance with chronic use. withdrawl includes irritability, perspiration, twitching, abdominal and muscle cramps, vomiting, diarrhea, fever, elevated blood pressure and heart rate. Cardiovascular collapse possible. It is injected, taken orally, smoked, or sniffed.
DEPRESSANTS: BARBITUATES: medically used as an anesthetic, anti-convulsant, sedative. sold as amytal, nembutal, seconal, phenobarbital. traceable 2-10 days. short term, small dose:similar to alochol intoxication, loss of inhibitions, depression of sensory cortex and respiration, decreased motor activity. drowsiness, sedation can cause fetal damage, varying moods, from relaxation to excitation. relief of tension. short term, large: unsteady walking, slurred speech, insomnia, headache, blurred vision, difficulty swallowing. weak tremors and rapid pulse. coma and death are possible often as a result of combining with alcohol. user can forget how much he's taken. Long term regular use may result in tolerance and dependency. symptoms of this mimic chronic alcoholism. withdrawal symptoms of anxiety, tremors, muscle twitching, dizziness, nasuea, distortion of visual perception, vomiting, convulsions and delirium, insomnia, abdominal cramps and rapid heart rate. withdrawal can be fatal. taken orally or injected.
STIMULANTS:
AMPHETAMINES: injected, orally, smoked, or sniffed. taken for ADHD, obesity, nacolepsy. sold as biphetamine, dexedrine. Street names, black beauties, crosses, hearts. traceable 1-2 days. causes increased mental alertness, confidence, reduced appetite, paranoia, aggression. feeling of being 'amped' headache, pupil dilation, increased heart rate and blood pressure. blurred vision, impaired speech, convulsions, twitching, irregular heartbeat, insomnia. can produce delirium panic and hallucinations particularly if taken in large doses over several days. prolonged use can lead to ulcers, damage to blood vessels, heart failure, etc. withdrawal ranges from fatigue, irritability and depression to severe craving, anxiety and psychotic reactions.
COCAINE: local analgesic. no trade names. called coke, crack, flake, blow, rocks.. etc.  traceable 1-4 days. causes euphoria, mental alertness, accompanied by a sense of invincibility.  increased heart-rate, blood pressure, temperature, and energy. dilated pupils, constricted blood vessels, decreased appetite. large doses can cause tremors, vertigo, muscle twitches, paranoia, may also lead to bizzare, erratic or violent behavior. can cause cardiac arrest, seizures, and respiratory arrest. Tolerance increases with use, high potential for dependancy, irritability and mood disturbances. restlessness, addiction, paranoia and auditory hallucinations. medical complications include: disturbances in heart rhythm, heart attacks, respiratory failure, strokes, seizures, headaches and abdominal pain. injected, smoked, or sniffed.
METHAMPHETAMINES: taken for ADHD, obesity, narcolepsy. sold as desoxyn, also called crank, crystal, glass, speed, chalk, meth, crystal meth, etc etc.. traceable 1-2 days. causes intense rush of euphoria, particularly when smoked or injected. larger doses required for each subsequent high. increased activity and energy, decreased appetite and need for sleep, increased respiration, increased heart rate and blood pressure. symptoms of overdose include restlessness, tremors, rapid respiration, confusion, hallucinations, panic, paranoia. Can cause irregular heartbeat, cardiovascular collapse, seizures, heart attacks, coma, and death.. Long term effects include sleep-deprivation.. possible neurotoxic effect, reduces dopamine transporters, can incur memory loss, psychotic behavior, potential cardiac and neurological damage. Injections can damage veins or cause thrombosis and abscesses. chronic use can lead to bizarre personality change and involuntary repetitive motion such as teeth grinding or eye rolling. withdrawal leads to depression and anxiety. injected smoked or sniffed
HALLUCINOGENS:
LSD: no medical uses. sold as lysergic acid, diethylamide, called acid, microdot, boomers, etc. linked to profound mystical experiences, often scary. abnormal sensory perceptions, dilated pupils and time distortion. may produce delusions and visual hallucinations including 'trails' also prolonged episodes that may resemble psychotic states. can lead to persistant psychosis and flashbacks. daily doses quickly become ineffective. can trigger underlying mental conditions and produce delusions, paranoia, panic attacks. no known withdrawal symptoms or physical dependancy.  taken orally
PSILOCYBIN: originally used as a theraputic tool. these are 'shrooms'. produces waves of giddiness and elation. described as more natural than acid trips. mild nausea, pupil dilation, may feel cold. indigestion, vomiting possible but rare, significant mental and emotional discomfort possible. Not psychologically habit forming. taken orally
CANNABIS: relief of pain, glaucoma, and nausea(used medically in california) sold as cannabis sativa, or cannabis indica. called herb, pot, weed, hash, reefer, and so on... produces relaxation and confusion, increased interest in visual phenomena. increase in heart rate, red eyes, cotton mouth. can impair motor skills. increase in appetite i.e. the 'munchies' as some refer to it. large doses can cause fatigue, panic or paranoia, a joint spiked with pcp/angel dust may cause hallucinations, coma, and death. long term use can lead to respiratory problems, psychological dependency may develop. claims of permanent brain damage and impaired memory as a result of long term use or abuse are insufficiently documented.


Now then, I didn't feel like noting the club drugs and such because A. that's alot more typing to do and B. I'm tired.
Ah hell, at least I'll note that ecstacy can contain PCP, ketamine, paramethoxyamphetamine, methamphetamines, dog worm pills, and prescription drugs like dextromethorphan. Also can be adulterated with alot more shit.


Oh, and Draigh... I hope you have a big enough crowbar to fit into that giant mouth of yours so you can pull your foot out of it, and THEN you can kiss my ass.

-Ingenious

[Brian Leybourne]

Guys, cool it. Don't make me close the thread.

We don't have flame or insult wars here, if you want to do that, go do it on someone elses forum. And I'm not interested in "he started it", "no, he did". The insults stop now or the thread does.

Brian.

[Ian.Plumb]

Hi,

I believe the word assassin comes from a cult of killers who would take hash before making their kills. Someone please correct me if I'm way off on that.

That's correct. The original term is thought to have been Hashishin, or users of Hashish (though there's some debate about this). There's a lot of Myth surrounding the cult, news of which was brought back to Europe first by the crusaders and later by Maro Polo. It may be true that they didn't use drugs at all. It's all really interesting, and I'd recommend to anyone reading up on this stuff.

You've read up on this stuff and you're content to simply agree? Shame on you! ; ^ ) Can you imagine Cheech and Chong making a kill having recently indulged in a spliff or three?

Seriously though:

The Assassins were the Nizari Ismailis, a branch of Shia Islam. Ismaili's claim that the stories of their use of murder as a political tool originated from Sunni scholars seeking to discredit their theological views and undermine their political position.

At most the drug use was intended to give the user a glimpse of the afterlife that awaited them should they be martyred. More likely there was no drug use.

The term Assassin has an obscure etymology. Given it is a Franc bastardisation of an Arabic word, it could be derived from:

hassas -- the root word of which (hassa) means to kill or exterminate,
Jabal al-Sikkin -- the name of the mountain on which the headquarters of the Syrian Ismailis was located. Sikkin means knife, hence "the mountain of the knife",
al-Sasani -- "the family of Sasan", where sasan means "adventurer",
al-Sisani -- from al-sisa meaning "rocky fortress", one who dwells in a rocky fortress, or
Hashishiyya -- the users of hasish.

The last of these was a term of abuse. The earliest reported political/theological use of the term against the Ismailis was in 1123 by Sunni authors. It implied that the Ismailis belonged to an inferior social and moral status.

It really is a fascinating subject, particularly when you tie it all back to  the history of the first fifty years of the Muslim faith.

Cheers,

[Draigh]

I think your motivations for playing an addicted character are probably immature and you don't have enough real-world knowledge of drugs and addiction to portray an addicted character accurately.

No offense intended here, but honestly, grow up.  This thread is immature.

As I stated, no offense was intended.
Notice this part right here...

This thread is immature.

As opposed to:

You vacuous insignificant little worm, don't you realize that?(sorry, but I cant help flaming someone that calls me immature; hypocrite = me, since flaming makes someone immature).

I never called you immature, you inferred it.  I said that I think your motivations are immature.  Excellent point about my mouth and it's checkwriting abilities, though.

Oh, and Draigh... I hope you have a big enough crowbar to fit into that giant mouth of yours so you can pull your foot out of it, and THEN you can kiss my ass.

I'll keep that in mind.

Honestly, in the end, I could give two shits and a fuck how you play your game, just have fun.  If you and your GM have fun playing with your character as an addict, great.  All that matters is that you enjoy the game.

They sure grow 'em touchy down in Texas, huh?


BTW: was your character inspired by Lu Bu?

[Ingenious]

Yes Draigh, in fact the inspiration for my character came a lot from Lu Bu and the Dynasty Warriors series of video games. However, I did not completely base him off of Lu Bu. I also took alot of what I've been through in terms of addiction and so forth, and put it in my character and he's also very much so fueled by revenge. The addiction is to help him forget about his past dealings with his family and the military and that his father was a moron in terms of strategy.

This topic, however, is just to find a means to an end for my character.

-Ingenious

[Anthony I]

The biggest problem I see is the whole drug-business angle- do you think that buying the land, constucting the buildings, doing the books, running the business will be exciting to actually play?  If not, just gloss it over and stick to the interesting parts.  

Take "Scarface" as an example, is how he runs the business the important part of the movie? Is exactly how much money an ounce of coke sells for important to the movie? Or is it how he interacts with his friends, family and enemies that make the movie good?  

I'd say its the same with your drug-cartel idea- figure out what the best, most exciting parts would be, focus on those, and let the minutia be background stuff.  Unless of course you like the minutia- then focus on that.

I would probably focus on things like how wealth, especially sudden wealth, can change long & short term relationship dynamics leading to things like betrayal from close friends, suddenly finding yourself business partners with old enemies, unable to truly trust those you love, etc.  

Please let us know how this eventually works out in actual play.

[Ian.Plumb]

Hi,

Drug types:
OPIATES: (snip)

Any chance of tying it back to a medieval or rennaisance pharmacological technology level?

Personally, I see this thread as a little unrealistic. The version of Weyrth that you are playing may be at the Fantastic end of the reality spectrum, in which case perhaps anything is possible. However, to use 14th century France as an example, what you propose would not be possible.

There are several significant obstacles that need to be overcome.

1) Obtain the land.
It isn't hard to obtain land, particularly after 1348. Land can be rented for a short period of time (like a year). However, whoever owns the land will be a feudal entity in their own right -- the church, petite nobility at the least. As such, by renting land from them you will be entering into a relationship that extends far beyond the handing over of a few coins.

2) Working the land.
Whoever works the land will need to live off what they produce. Diversification is the key to survival. If a single crop fails there needs to be something else to eat so that the farmers may survive through to the reaping of the next crop -- or everyone dies.

In addition, the farmers will need expertise in growing what you want grown. They will need to know how to deal with the parasites, the fungal growths, and so on that will attack the plant. They'll need to know how to space the plants, what sort of soil they need, how much sun/water is required, and so on. Agriculture is a complicated business even for a medieval farmer.

3) Converting the plant into product.
This piece of knowledge will be absolutely critical. To do this on a commercial scale will require significant expertise. If your character doesn't have this expertise then it will have to be hired in from the native production area. This will be both difficult and expensive.

4) The right to sell.
You've worked your land, produced your crop, produced your product -- and you don't have the right to sell it.

For those that do not work the land directly, the medieval economy is largely based on the buying and selling of income streams. In the end, there is no abstraction in the medieval economy -- to make more money you have to buy something that makes money. There's nothing else to invest in.

The rights to high and low justice in an area were bought and sold because having the right gave access to the fines generated by the court. Important relics were bought, sold, and fought over because they gave access to the donations of pilgrims and pennitents. The rights to produce lumber from a forest, the right to fish in a river, rents on properties were all bought and sold (without necessarily selling the underlying asset -- you could buy the rights to the rent produced by a property without buying the actual property).

If you want to sell your product at market then you're going to have to pay for that priviledge. And there is a reasonable chance that the owner of the rights to any particular market is going to want more than coin from you in exchange.

5) The response to your product.

In 14th century France the rule of law is strong. The larger the population the stronger the rule of law. By this I do not mean that there was a high degree of centralisation and coordination of law enforcement. Rather, the people themselves were law abiding for the most part. How do we know this? Directly, through contemporary documents from the secular courts that show the frequency and types of crimes being committed. Indirectly, through how law enforcement was conducted.

Lyon, a city with a population of between 16k and 20k, had a secular court with a prévot and a number of sergeants. The prévot was responsible for keeping the peace and worked for the court. He had 16 sergeants working for him, which doubled to 32 during the time of a fair (when there would be a large influx of foreigners).

What will happen when a new recreational drug is introduced into this environment? IMO, not much. Being from the east it will be condemned by the church for its association with the saracen. Once condemned those that are law abiding won't buy it even if it isn't illegal to buy it. If not condemned those responsible for law enforcement will make it illegal if it is in the public interest to do so.

There were no laws against drugs in the west because they never faced the problem. Look to the east and its laws, secular and religious, for an understanding of how a medieval society deals with the drug issue.

Cheers,

[Ingenious]

Yes, I know the difficulties of all of these things that you have pointed out. However, the seneschal does not have to set it up to reflect history. It could be that money rules over social class in this world, and I am told that my character has quite a bit of it. Regardless Ian, like you stated that maybe the right to buy land is limited to nobility, but I still have to point out to everyone here that my character can easily be disguised as a noble in order to buy lands. I then can set up a manor, my character can install his own Lord of the Manor, and the peasantry can farm the land however they want throughout the year except for the crop of drugs. That quota they must meet. With complete rights to the land, I can therefore allow the peasants to hunt on my lands, should a crop fail, etc. About your point on converting the plant to product. Expertise my character does not have, however expensive it is to fund a person with such knowledge would not be a problem. I can fund all of this through a bank, and from what I read of medieval banking, with letters of credit.
Now about the right to sell, as far as I am concerned.. this is a non-issue.
However, you speak as if I am going to be setting up shop in such a place as to even have a LOCAL government. This is not the case. I can just as easily buy some uninhabited lands out in the middle of nowhere, where I would basically have free run of the place.
About your thoughts on the response to my 'product'. I don't necessarily have to sell it to a place with a secular court, or even an established religion. Hell, I could sell it back in my character's homeland, from what I read on Stahl they are mostly atheists.

-Ingenious

[Ian.Plumb]

Hi,

However, the seneschal does not have to set it up to reflect history.

Absolutely. From what you're saying, the referee hasn't.

... but I still have to point out to everyone here that my character can easily be disguised as a noble in order to buy lands.

I am a little curious as to what your referee feels is necessary to prove nobility but then, as you rightly point out, it doesn't have to be based on the real world.

I then can set up a manor, my character can install his own Lord of the Manor, and the peasantry can farm the land however they want throughout the year except for the crop of drugs....

...I can fund all of this through a bank, and from what I read of medieval banking, with letters of credit.

...However, you speak as if I am going to be setting up shop in such a place as to even have a LOCAL government. This is not the case. I can just as easily buy some uninhabited lands out in the middle of nowhere, where I would basically have free run of the place.

Unless there is no credible form to the world's infrastructure -- and I haven't read anything about Weyrth, so perhaps it has no definition of its own infrastructure -- you can't have it both ways. You can't require the peak of medieval infrastructure -- feudal nobility network, letters of exchange, mints, trade networks, law and so on -- on the one hand and then drop this creation in the middle of nowhere, free of any form of government or law, on the other.

About your thoughts on the response to my 'product'. I don't necessarily have to sell it to a place with a secular court, or even an established religion. Hell, I could sell it back in my character's homeland, from what I read on Stahl they are mostly atheists.

?

You want to sell your product in a place where there are no courts? Where there is no central authority (at the village, town, city, or domainal level, either secular or religious) so that there can be no formal response. Virtually by definition, in a medieval society there can be no money in the place you are describing.

Cheers,

[Ingenious]

Yea, I see what you're saying. But I don't really see what I was saying lol. I was in such a condition at the moment that I knew nothing of what I was talking about. That happens often hahaha

Now then, onto your most recent post. I am also curious as to what my ref would say I needed in order to prove nobility.
On to the point about lording of the manor... I used that as a reference to something I might be capable of doing depending on what the circumstances are in this world. On the flipside, what I also could do is just buy some land,  and get some slave labor in there to work the fields. I could probably feed them with the gold that I would be saving by not having to pay them for work. Let's say that these slaves could even be criminals, sentenced to a life of hardship.. or some sort of labor based punishment. *shrug* though with this my character would be ultimately responsible for their welfare.

Now the point about courts, it isn't that I want to sell it to a place with no courts.. I want to sell it to a place where the use of these drugs are legal, therefore it should be legal to buy them. I agree with your thoughts on the anarchy that would ensue without a court, and also no monetary system. However, with Stahl... most likely it will be legal since they don't use religion as a source of laws for government. The many historical variations of religion based government are too numerous to mention.
The comment I wrote on selling to a nation without a secular court was wrong, since at the time I had forgot the definition of the term secular.

And the legality of the goods in question ultimately depends on what kind of drugs they are, their effects on the population.. and the potential spike in criminal activity that might be blamed on my product. Then I could see it become illegal, and I might have to take my money and run.

Now, as to what Anthony said... I highly agree with you that in play I should focus on the relationships, the sudden onset of wealth.. how this changes relationship dynamics etc. But, as far as to what I am doing in this thread... I am meaning to just try to gleam as much information as I can about the topic to save my ref from doing all of the research,  since I have so much time on my hands suddenly.. so I might as well help out where I can.
And I will keep you all posted on how this works out in the adventure.

-Ingenious

[Ingenious]

Okay having read through all of my research and using alot of ya'lls ideas and suggestions.. I find that this issue has far too many variables to be an efficiently plausible situation for my character to do, without sacrificing the game play of others in the group. It would take too much time, and it would not be something I could easily 'set and forget' like a microwave.
This is of course, unless the seneschal running the show doesn't think so.
Either way, as a side-venture for additional capital(err is that capitol?) and to possibly mix things up in the world(the direct opposite of what I said on the issue) is that I can take the horse-breeding idea and run with it. I heard from a friend that 'war is good for profit'.

I'll see what the GM says about these issues.

-Ingenious

[ZazielsRephaim]

I dissappear for a little while, and see what happens.  Anywho, concerning the whole drug issue... I had never before had it come up in a game, so I decided to let it ride, and see how well it worked out.  Not too knowledgable in the details of drugs, nor really caring (lol) Decided to keep a level of faith in the players.  Sofar, gamewise, all that has come up, is Stan's daily hit... (no biggy, toke before sleep)  and drugging some guards.  

As for the whole cartel/druglord issue...  I figure a player can be allowed to decided what they want to TRY to do.. and how they want to try to do it.  They just better be ready for a realistic outcome.  Besides, I've been pushing (pun not intended) the horse breeding idea ever since it came up.  Either way, the players have issues they need to deal with in the short term.

Thank you all for your intelligent input.  As for realisticly portraying landownership and such, No one had brought that up during the last session, and the purchasing of land will be portrayed mostly in a realistic and historical manner... but... it varies from culture to culture and nation to nation... of course.  Most of the characters have little knowledge outside of the nations they've allready been too....   so if they want to learn more... I might suggest they explore a bit.  

YMMV,
Luke