Random BW Questions

[Lxndr]

I've poked through here, and I've poked through the forums on your site, as well as looking through the book.  Here are questions I couldn't find answered.  If they were, sorry for bugging you:

* Say your Sorcery is Gray, and your Will is Black.  Or the reverse, either way.  When you ADD Sorcery to Will and roll the combined dice, how does that play out?  Is your standard DN 4, or 3?  Or do you roll some dice vs 4 and others vs 3? (You're already keeping your Will dice a separate color, so that's certainly possible)  I've seen specific instructions for what to do when the shades differ in other scenarios, but not in this one.

* I can accept most of the skills that aren't listed as BEING unlisted, but a few seem to be crying out for a place in the lists.  Pick the Pocket - what is the root for that skill?  Omen - what does it mean to HAVE that particular training skill?  Heck, in general it'd be nice to know what the ROOTS are for various unlisted skills...?

The first one is the big one for me.  The other I can work around, but want to at least mention.

[Luke]

* Say your Sorcery is Gray, and your Will is Black.  Or the reverse, either way.  When you ADD Sorcery to Will and roll the combined dice, how does that play out?  Is your standard DN 4, or 3?  Or do you roll some dice vs 4 and others vs 3? (You're already keeping your Will dice a separate color, so that's certainly possible)  I've seen specific instructions for what to do when the shades differ in other scenarios, but not in this one.

Both DNs apply. Roll two sets of different colored dice (preferrably gray and black. my friend has some really cool gray dice he uses...), one for each shade.

rock on,
-L

[rafial]

(preferrably gray and black. my friend has some really cool gray dice he uses...)

At our pre-game discussion this week, the idea of special BW dice came up.  They'd come in black, grey, and white.  The black ones would have a symbol on half the faces, and the other half would be blank.  The grey ones would have 4 symbol marked faces, and 2 blank, and the whites would have symbols on 5 sides.

Then you can just roll and count the symbols.

It can be a future marketing gimmick ;)

-wilhelm

[Lxndr]

Next few questions:

* First, I notice neither Great Spiders nor Great Wolves can be Faithful (or Trolls for that matter).  Is that a game balance decision, or a game world decision?  It seems to me that, unlike Gifted, all the races in the Character Burner can be Faithful, so what is the reason behind denying it to the monsters?  If, as a GM, I decree that Great Spiders can be Faithful, what (if anything) might be thrown out of whack?  

* Secondly, I'm interested in the apparent commentary that leads to Great Wolves able to be Gifted, but Great Spiders and Trolls may not not.  I infer this from the latter two specifically having a note saying they may not be Gifted, but Great Wolves not having selfsame note.  Why do Great Wolves get to sling around abstract spells, but not Spiders?  And I ask, again, what game balance (if any) might get uncorked if I decide that Great Spiders can be Gifted?

(For the record, I'm toying with the idea of a game that uses just Humans and Great Spiders.)

[Luke]

Hi Alexander,

Let me see if I can answer some of your questions regarding magic, faith and "race." [I freaking hate that term, btw. we've got to do better.]

First and foremost, I wanted every "race" [argh] in BW to be unique, in culture and ultimately in gameplay.

That wolves aren't restricted from the "Gifted" trait is an oversight. Gifted and Faithful are solely for Men.

However, Wolves have their own forms of Gifted and Faithful in the form of Mark of the Ancient, and Chosen One/Ancestral Taint. Which unlock access to Sorcery, (Spirit) Summoning and Wolf Howls.

Spiders are different from wolves and men in that their magic is innate and manifests in a special skill. In fact, this puts them closer to Elves, Orcs and Dwarves. All Great Spider webs are considered to be potentially magical. Learning Wyrd Weaving training allows the Great Spider (with the Weaving skill) to arrange his webs in such a way as to give them magical effect.

Elves have their songs -- spell, skill and craft. These simply act as individual skills, but with potentially magical effects (both in their open-ended nature and their in game effect).

Dwarves have a more limited version of Elven songs in their crafts and arts. Skills that would be typically flat, are open-ended for these master craftsmen.

Orcs, like Elves, tap into their emotional nature to amplify their magical potential -- their Hatred, which mutates into something Faith-like after they are given the Void Embrace. However, they also draw on the experience of Sorcery and Summoning to create a dangerous hybrid of magic. They may summon, abstract, and channel their emotion to give certain skills "magical effect." (In the case of Orcs this include Intimidation and Torture, rather than songs of healing, strength and courage.)

Trolls were designed to be simply too primitive and too oppressed to learn skilled Sorcery and also I decided in their design that their nature was inimical to such gifts.

A friend of mine runs a BW where trolls have Sorcery and Faith, if I am not mistaken. As far as I can tell, it hasn't ruined the enjoyment of any of his players and has only served his needs as a GM.

On the other hand, I submit that each "race" [erg] has its own unique form of magic and doesn't need access to any other to make it potent or interesting. Imagine men spinning Web-Wyrds! Or Elves singing wolf howls!

-Luke

[Lxndr]

Thanks for all the answers so far.

Instead of race, perhaps species?  genus?  ilk?

(I didn't get from reading the rules that Faithful was only for Men.  Gifted I got, but I thought that Faithful was available for everyone in the Character Burner, at least.  Did I miss something in the books, or is that not in the books?)

Anyway...  if Great Spider's webs are tantamount to sorcerous spells (which they seem to be), can they learn Abstractions through their Web-Wyrding?  Or are Abstractions solely limited to Men (through Gifted Sorcery) and Wolves (through Mark of the Ancient and Tongue of the Ancient)?  Officially, at least.

Just spinning my wheels, but if Great Spiders CAN learn Abstractions, it seems like it'd make sense that they don't get Instantaneous for free, but Sustained instead (considering the nature of their spells).  And, as you noted on page 47, abstractions should all be "actions" instead of "syllables", to take into account the written form, as well as to be consistent with other spider spells.  Does that seem to make sense?

[Luke]

Does that seem to make sense?

you're spot on. I don't see why Secret Spinners and Ghosts of the Deeping Wood can't use Abstractions to further their idiom.

If you've read the Orc Hatred rules, you'll see that I recommend limiting Orcs to Abstractions only for Rituals of Night.

[Lxndr]

Nifty.  So this means that only Elves and Dwarves don't get abstractions?  Or is there a way for them to get it too.

Also:  is Faithful really reserved only for humans?  No faithful Elves?  No faithful Dwarves?  Faithful Orcs?  Where in the BW books is this stated (if this is the case)?

Finally, in making a Great Spider I came across a few things I want to question:

1.  Fate-Spinner gives the skill "Weaving."  Orb-Weaver gives the skill "Weaver."  Are they supposed to be the same skill (my assumption)?  If not, what are the differences?

2.  Arch-Weaver gives "Patient."  Strand-Hunter gives "Patience."  Are these supposed to be the same Trait, or are they meant to be separate traits?

I have more, but I'm going to wait until I get home again and check my books.

[Luke]

Nifty.  So this means that only Elves and Dwarves don't get abstractions?  Or is there a way for them to get it too.

Also:  is Faithful really reserved only for humans?  No faithful Elves?  No faithful Dwarves?  Faithful Orcs?  Where in the BW books is this stated (if this is the case)?

Gifted and Faithful are solely for Men.

Page 177 of the Chararacter Burner under the Gifted trait description. Faithful doesn't give a hard restriction, but you'll also notice how difficult it is to get 5 trait points with Elves, Dwarves and Orcs. This is intentional.


You can do what ever fires your imagination, but Faithful/Gifted Elves/Dwarves/Orcs are another order of magnitude of power. I strongly recommend keeping matters simple in your first go 'round of BW. It's a versatile and strong system, but it can overwhelm if you're not careful.

-L

[Lxndr]

Yeah, Gifted is rather strongly curtailed (which I can accept).  I have no plans at this time to allow anyone but humans to be Gifted.  Heck, as I'm planning it, my first game won't even have Elves, Dwarves, or Orcs.  I just want humans and spiders.  Maybe wolves.  And we've already discussed Abstractions for them.

I'm just surprised that you were as firm on Faithful for Men only without adding similar commentary in that Trait's text.  Nothing in Character Burner says "no Faithful!" for Elves, Dwarves, or Orcs.  But Monster Burner does say "no Faithful!" for Trolls, Spiders, and Wolves (which, if anything, seem LESS inclined to be a problem with Faith).

On another note, you've given Orcs a way to grab a limited set of Abstractions through Blasphemous Hatred (more specifically, through Rituals of the Night).  We've already discussed Abstractions for Wolves (through the Tongue of the Ancient One) and Spiders (two ways, either through Void Embrace and Blasphemous Hatred, as per Orcs; or through Web-Wyrding).

Is there no way for the venerable Elves and Dwarves to access Abstractions?  Elves through Songs, mayhaps?  Dwarves through... whatever it is Dwarves do?  Or are their traditions too old and hide-bound for something as versatile as Abstractions?  (Which I can buy)

(I'm also going to assume that Weaving and Weaver are the same skill, and Patient and Patience are the same Trait, unless you tell me otherwise.)

[Luke]

Alexander,

Yes, those are the same traits and skills. Sorry for the confusion. Remember that those chapters are essentially unedited manuscripts. Hopefully we'll get them all consistent and cleaned up for the Monster Burner.

Also, remember that BW is simply a system. I've really tried to provide too much; you're supposed to pick and choose what's right for your game. Which is what you are doing, which is good. I strongly advocate limiting spell choice, limiting lifepath selection, and even limiting the races available.

I'm sorry I'm not supporting my position on Faith with a quote from the rules. It's really more of an oversight than anything else. I strongly recommend against allowing cultures which already have potent magic to have access to another cultures equally potent powers.

And to answer your last question: Elves and Dwarves do not have access to the Gift. The Gift gives access to Sorcery (and all its sisters). Abstraction is simply another form of Sorcery. So Elves and Dwarves do not use this type of power. It's really a cultural thing. Why would Elves, who are eternal, risk damaging themselves and the earth with something so unstable as Sorcery? And why would dwarves trust in anything but gold, steel, true silver and nog? (At some point I'll be releasing more detailed info on the Dwarven Crafts and Arts. But if you've played, you'll recognize that open-ended craftsman skills are a very good thing!)

-Luke

Yeah, Gifted is rather strongly curtailed (which I can accept).  I have no plans at this time to allow anyone but humans to be Gifted.  Heck, as I'm planning it, my first game won't even have Elves, Dwarves, or Orcs.  I just want humans and spiders.  Maybe wolves.  And we've already discussed Abstractions for them.

I'm just surprised that you were as firm on Faithful for Men only without adding similar commentary in that Trait's text.  Nothing in Character Burner says "no Faithful!" for Elves, Dwarves, or Orcs.  But Monster Burner does say "no Faithful!" for Trolls, Spiders, and Wolves (which, if anything, seem LESS inclined to be a problem with Faith).

On another note, you've given Orcs a way to grab a limited set of Abstractions through Blasphemous Hatred (more specifically, through Rituals of the Night).  We've already discussed Abstractions for Wolves (through the Tongue of the Ancient One) and Spiders (two ways, either through Void Embrace and Blasphemous Hatred, as per Orcs; or through Web-Wyrding).

Is there no way for the venerable Elves and Dwarves to access Abstractions?  Elves through Songs, mayhaps?  Dwarves through... whatever it is Dwarves do?  Or are their traditions too old and hide-bound for something as versatile as Abstractions?  (Which I can buy)

(I'm also going to assume that Weaving and Weaver are the same skill, and Patient and Patience are the same Trait, unless you tell me otherwise.)