Tokens and the Highlander

[Blind Hero]

I apologize if this has been done to death before.  My search over the older threads didn't satisfy my question.

I'm running a Highlander game in Sorcerer.  It fit's like a glove.  As I was working out the ideas behind Humanity and the "sorcery" of giving power to your desires and emotions, I came across Token in Sorcerer and Sword and said to myself, "Hey, sounds like the Quickening!".

So here is my situation.  I set down that each immortal is a "token", a bearer of the Quickening.  When an immortal wins a battle and takes his opponents head (Humanity check), the immortal gains a "Token" equal to the Token or Lore of the vanquished immortal.  If the winning immortal has already won one battle and possesses a Token, there is a chance of increasing your own Token.  Match your Token bonus against the Lore or Token of the fallen immortal.  Victories increase your Token.

Now, onto my question.  Do the bonus dice in a Token remain in the Token when it is used or are they depleted?  S&S says that it's not a battery, so I lean to the first.

And if anyone has any ideas on such a game in general.....

[Ron Edwards]

Hello, and welcome!

As you know, I was influenced a bit by Highlander in writing Sorcerer; you can see it all over the sanzoku material in the seventh chapter of the main book. I was wondering if anyone would ever get around to this, and here you are!

As for your question, you are right: Tokens do not get depleted through use. Does this make them horrifically, menacingly powerful? Yes - and if you go through the rules for using them in Sorcerer & Sword with some care, you'll see that it is verrrrry tricky to keep oneself from tons of Humanity checks when doing so. Possible, but tricky.

The GM and players should be careful to monitor whether a Token is appropriate to use for bonus dice, by those rules.

Best,
Ron

[Blind Hero]

Thanks, Ron!  That helps allot and puts aside some confusion.

I've defined Humanity for my Highlander game as being able to relate to mortals and your control over your part in the Game.  Humanity loss can happen when you make decisions that affirm your own immortality and distance yourself from the affairs of mortals and those you hold dear, when you die and return to life, when you break the rules of the Game, when you take a head or whenever you affirm your destiny within the Game.  Humanity gains can happen when you sacrifice your own goals and desires for a mortal you care for, when you show mercy by not taking a head or any act that would empathize yourself with mortals or make decisions that go against your destiny in the Game.

So, are there any ideas out there about how to use the Quickening (Token) without checking for Humanity loss?  Perhaps it has to be a wholly selfless act.  More often then not it seems you would be affirming your place within the Game to use the Quickening, calling for a Humanity check.  The risk of loss that comes from using the Quickening would drive immortals to give power to their emotions and desires (demons).  It's a necessary evil for immortals that don't want to be consumed by the Game.

Has anyone tried this or run a Highlander style game?

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

Let's see ...

My first question is to clarify that one can beat an opponent in the Game but not take his head, correct?

You wrote,

So, are there any ideas out there about how to use the Quickening (Token) without checking for Humanity loss? Perhaps it has to be a wholly selfless act.

Well, off the top of my head, here are the basic ideas behind the Token-use rules:

a) repeat or closely symbolize the original act (of killing) which created the Token

b) do something that accords with the purpose of the Token as originally created

If you can figure out a way to do this without incurring a Humanity loss, then that's great. Again, not impossible, but it takes thought and preparation, very highly specific to that Token and to your character's own personal situation.

More often then not it seems you would be affirming your place within the Game to use the Quickening, calling for a Humanity check. The risk of loss that comes from using the Quickening would drive immortals to give power to their emotions and desires (demons). It's a necessary evil for immortals that don't want to be consumed by the Game.

I confess that my knowledge of and interest in Highlander stops with the first movie, but don't let that stop you. Anyone else can certainly provide lots of thoughts on this one.

Best,
Ron

[Valamir]

I think you have a pretty outstanding workable concept for applying humanity to the context of immortals.  One can virtually point for point trace Conners humanity score throughout the entire first/only movie using these guidelines.

It would seem to me that under these guidelines what you have at zero humanity is someone who lives only for the game.  Someone who is completely and utterly given over to the pursuit of the prize with no remaining concern for any mortal interests...i.e. the Kurgan.  Even Ramirez was probably hovering close to 0 as evidenced by his primary interest in Conner being as a check in the game vs. the Kurgan and his recommendation to abandoned his mortal love.

That would lend me to speculate that the nature of the prize is then wholly dependent on the humanity score of the immortal who is the last immortal standing.  A 0 humanity Kurgan victory would be quite horrific from the perspective of mortals.  Fortuneately, while he started off pretty low, Conner acquired sufficient humanity gain over the course of the movie that he had a decent humanity score when he finally won.

I'm not casually familiar with the mechanics of the Token, so I can't offer many suggestions there (unless you care to summarize the rules as you see them applying) but I would be interested in how you're defining demons.

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

Yeah, Ralph, that's exactly my take on the first movie too.

Best,
Ron

[Mike Holmes]

I'll second the request for the demon definition.

Mike

[Blind Hero]

Glad you like the Humanity angle!

It would seem to me that under these guidelines what you have at zero humanity is someone who lives only for the game. Someone who is completely and utterly given over to the pursuit of the prize with no remaining concern for any mortal interests...i.e. the Kurgan.

Exactly!  The Kurgan has lost himself in the Game and can no longer empathize or even understand mortals.  His sole desire is to win the Game, nothing else.

Conner starts off with a low Humanity, like you said.  But during the movie he had to choose the seclusion of immortality or embrace and involve himself both with his assistant (the one he raised after the war, forgot her name) and his romantic interest (her name too).  You can see the very second where Conner chooses his love for them over his desire to play the Game.

A Token for Highlander is "created" in the immortal when he takes a head.  This creates a number of bonus dice equal to the Lore or current Token of the vanquished immortal.  These can be used in similar acts as bonus dice.  The act is usually very similar to the act that created it or thematically consistent.  During a battle or other similar situation they can Boost Stamina, get sudden insights into the past or their opponents or do Special Damage.  Such as when immortals jump from high places with no damage or charge their swords with lightning.  But doing so REALLY affirms your inhuman state as an immortal and jeopardizes your Humanity.  

So immortals will often focus in on their own strong emotions and desires, giving them extraordinary power and skill.  While they avoid the Humanity consumer that the Quickening (Token) can be when used, they run the risk of loosing themselves in those emotions and desires.

A classic example of immortals following the stages of Contact, Summon and Bind are when both the Kurgan and Conner are alone.  Each goes through a personal ritual that sets their minds on the conflict and summon up that raw emotion or desire that will aid them in the final battle.

So for immortals they look inside for that desire or emotion (Contact), bring it forth (Summon) and seek to master it (Bind).  The Desire is usually something the immortal wants but because of circumstances, beliefs or their own immortality, it is something that is hard to get.  The Need is usually related to the emotion or desire itself.  

For example, one character in my immortal campaign used to be a professional gymnast, with all the psychological baggage that comes with growing up in that environment.  As a result she like to show off and be seen for it but desires true affection and love with no strings attached.  So her inner demon Desires this real attention and love but Needs her to show off so that it remains strong.

[Valamir]

Interesting approach.

If I'm following your use of Tokens that would lead to to some truly massive numbers of bonus dice being thrown around.  You may want to consider keeping the "Quickening Total" as a seperate stat and rolling it (perhaps against own Humanity or Opponents Quickening Total).  Then using the successes from that roll as the Bonus.   Which is a long winded way of suggesting to use the Token to provide an augmenting roll rather than dice directly.

The number of successes on that roll could then also be the number of dice rolled against Humanity for the Humanity Check.  The more power you draw from the quickening the harder it is to pass the Check...as an idea.


I'm having a bit of a hard time following your demons.  I get the parallel for contact, summon, bind.  But how are you actually defineing the demons in Sorcerer terms.

Are they parasites, possessors (which would tie nicely in with 0 humanity losing yourself to the possessing demon)...

Are you restricting the powers and trappings to highlander suitable powers.  Would the demon provide "Special Damage" but transfer that to the sword of the immortal.  Would you say the immortal's super human leaps are the result of boosted stamina or a singular type of Travel.

Is the ability of an immortal to sense another immortal involve the Mark power...

etc.

[Blind Hero]

I'm having a bit of a hard time following your demons. I get the parallel for contact, summon, bind. But how are you actually defineing the demons in Sorcerer terms.

Are they parasites, possessors (which would tie nicely in with 0 humanity losing yourself to the possessing demon)...

As far as actual demon types, they tend to be Parasites, Objects and Inconspicuous.  Parasites are the most common and tend represent their innermost desires and beliefs.  These are the personal demons that immortals gain power from but must struggle with internally.

Objects are usually items (often their weapons) that mean something to them.  A family sword or a ring from their first wife.  Because it's Highlander and not true "sorcerers" the objects have to have that personal link.  Unlike a Parasite, which an immortal may try to overcome (Banish), most would never think of harming these precious heirlooms.

Inconspicuous demons are "loved ones" that haunt them.  This can stretch out to personal sins or the past lives of other immortals.  Sometimes the immortal welcomes such a demon, even though it might pain him.

When 0 humanity is reached, one of their demons might "evolve" into a possessor, taking over with dark desires.

Another demon type could be the past lives and emotions of the immortals that you have vanquished.  These can be either singly or collective.  One memory or many.  A true taking of their "power".  Great powers for this type of demon are Hint and Cover as you actually take on their skills and memories.

This kind of demon can lead to the Dark Quickening, or the Darkening (Duncan suffered from this once in the show).  Sometimes you vanquish an immortal so evil and inhuman that it infects you and seeks to burn away your Humanity.  Such a change could be seen as a change from human to demon, as in the Sorcerer's Soul.  The demon that is the Darkening could either be a Possessor, a Passer or a Parasite.

As a Possessor it subjugates you, burying you within and taking over.  It could lead to a very satisfying story where the immortal has to fight himself on a mental level and Banish the demon.

A Passer could be a dark version of you, following you around and causing you trouble or doing dark deeds in your name.  Once again you will need to battle yourself.  The question is, how far will you go and what will you sacrifice to set things right?

And the Parasite tries to get you to give in to your darker desires and the Game, bringing you to 0 Humanity.

I let the players be creative in what their demons are and what they mean.  Most are Parasite emotions and desires, some are loved ones bound to an item (Object), and some are strong memories that the immortal can't or won't let go of.

Any one got some more ideas?